Sober Superstars: Demolishing Alcohol's Alluring Lies

[00:00:00] When was the last time you were out with your friends and your buddy was like, yo, dude, why aren't you doing any crack with us? And you had to justify your choice not to do hard drugs. Well, if you have that conversation, you probably want to change your circle of influence because that's not the conversation you should be having.

However, alcohol is just as toxic for your body and leads to a lot more damage than you realize. If you don't drink socially, It's considered abnormal. And your friends are like, eh, at least some of your friends, right? Some of the people in your influence. So why is that? Well, today on the show, we're talking about the lies that alcohol and the alcohol industry tell us about why we need to drink.

I've got author and speaker Duncan Brown, who is hilarious guys. Absolutely hilarious. I had so much fun recording the show who wrote an incredible book, real men quit. And guys, I promise I'm not going to ask you to quit [00:01:00] drinking. When you watch this show, I drink. But we are going to look logically at some of the things the alcohol industry tells us, as opposed to how they match up to our lives.

Duncan wrote the most mins I've ever read. Like, it was phenomenal. Guys, I literally said, F yeah, really loud. Like, I got dirty looks from my wife. wife when I was reading the first chapter, because I literally just exclaimed out loud because I enjoyed the book so much in the first two chapters already.

Guys, Duncan tells you right at the beginning of the book, I'm not asking you to quit drinking. We're asking you to look at the lies the alcohol industry and alcohol has told you and then sold to you since the day you were born and the day you started actually seeing media in the world. I promise this is a conversation conversation that's going to make you think.

It may change the way you look at things. Check out what Duncan has to [00:02:00] say right here and let's get into it. I just love everybody to realize that they're enough. You know, you have everything inside you that you need to live a happy, healthy, productive, meaningful, amazing life. You never needed the alcohol because my friend, you are enough.

Here's the million dollar question. How do men like us reach our full potential growing to the men we dream of becoming while taking care of our responsibilities, working, living, being good husbands, fathers, and still take care of ourselves? Well, that's the big question. And in this podcast, we'll help you with those answers and more.

My name is Brent and welcome to the Fallible Man podcast. Welcome to the Fallible Man podcast. You're home for all things, man, husband, and father, big shout out to Fallible Nation. That's our long time listeners. And Hey, you know what? Just stick around. You can be part of that and a warm welcome to our first time listeners.

There's a lot out there competing for your attention. So from the bottom of my heart, thanks for giving us a chance. Be sure and connect with me at the Fallible Man on most social media [00:03:00] platforms. I'm particularly active on Instagram. Let me know what you think of the show. I love to hear your opinion. If you really enjoy the show.

The biggest compliment you can give us is to share it with a friend who needs it. That just helps us get to a whole lot more people who need to hear what we're sharing My name is brent and today my special guest is speaker author morris dancer duncan brown duncan Welcome to the fallible man podcast.

Oh, thank you very much for having me. It's um, it's nice to be among the fallible Right. We like to be really clear about that up front and lower that bar of expectation It's good, I love it Uh, Duncan, we start out pretty simple here. How's your trivia skills? Oh, so I think I'm all right. Um, um, my wife, uh, always tells me I'm competitive and I just say, no, I, I just know more stuff than you.

So, uh, we'll see. Is that going to come back to haunt me? Oh yeah. We're going to put the, put you to the test today. Ready? Here's the question of the show. What type of sportsmen [00:04:00] are more likely to get diseases of the anus or rectum? Is it A. Competitive cyclists, B. Curlers, C. Water skiers, or D. Bobsledders?

Ooh,

I'm going to go cyclists because that's the one that I know most about. And there's a lot, a lot of chafing going on. So, yeah, I have a, my, my doctor was competitive cyclist and I was like, I just. I can't do the spandex, man. I can't. I am not made for spandex. I got a little much love there. You know, Tyler Hamilton, who was one of Lance Armstrong's U.

1. postal riders, but I think he got kicked off the team for not cheating enough. Anyway, in his autobiog, he said, uh, you knew you were in shape when it started to hurt to sit down. Oh, no, just, just no. Yeah. It's not, it's not for me. Duncan, I don't do [00:05:00] huge introductions because no one gives a crap about accolades these days.

In your own words today, in this moment, who is Duncan Brown? I mean, right at the start, you know, you mentioned, um, father and husband and that, that's really who I am, isn't it? I've got, I've got a gorgeous wife. A gorgeous daughter and a couple of average looking bonsai trees. And, you know, that, that's really what it's all about.

Obviously, I have to put food in the fridge, don't I? I have to, to look after them. So, to do that, I, I try and help people. And a lot of the time, I think they, they believe I'm going to help them to stop drinking. But that's not what I do. Not at all. What I do is I help people to start living. I like it. How old are you kids?

Uh, you've got one daughter. She has just turned eight. Although sometimes I think she's in her mid thirties. Right. [00:06:00] I have a 12 year old and a nine year old going on 30. So yeah, yeah, I get that entirely, but it is a fun age. Oh yeah. She's great. I mean, just a constant delight. Her and her friend yesterday entirely naively said something that's actually quite rude.

They just sort of like don't appreciate the context of it. But, uh, yeah, I mean, it's just, it's laugh a minute stuff, isn't it? Where are you joining us from? So I live just outside Oxford in the United Kingdom. Excellent. This is one of the things I love about podcasting is with the modern, I laugh at modern technology because I was an IT guy for years.

So I was like, this really isn't new. But with technology, the way it is, right, we can have these conversations and get to meet amazing people around the world. And I love it. It's one of the best things about doing this. Yeah, absolutely. And I think, you know, that [00:07:00] diversity of experience and diversity of opinion can add real depth and texture and nuance to your thinking and the ability to, to really get to know people around the world through powerful mediums like.

You know video and as you point out it's not actually that new It's just everybody thought it was invented during the pandemic, but never mind Actually what I like about it is we find out we have more in common Right. I'm sure you and I could sit and just talk about being a dad all day. All day. No questions asked.

Just, uh, when you start to see we have more in common, no matter where we are in the world, I can sit down with any dad anywhere in the world and have an amazing conversation. Yeah, I mean, I was very lucky that I, I learned that lesson. A few years ago, I used to be quite involved in local politics and, you know, I'm sure your listeners have heard of Northern [00:08:00] Ireland and the Troubles and things like that.

Um, but there's two sides in that conflict and they're kind of like Sinn Féin and the DUP. Um, which, uh, you know, seemed to be on opposing ends of the scale, but I was very lucky that I got to work with a guy from Sinn Fein and a guy from the DUP and they were exactly the same. They were so similar. I'm like, you guys have got so much in common because they're just, you know, real warm hearted, caring individuals who just want the best for their communities.

And they worked so hard to try and improve. The lot of the people around them and and that was their their main driving force And it's like you guys are actually identical. You just happen to have grown up on different sides of the same city Um, but you know, you're so much more in common Your, your views on this thing are not aligned.

Everything else about your life is actually really exactly. [00:09:00] Now, before we get all serious, what is an insult you've received that you're proud of? Ooh, so

I often refer to myself as being unemployable. Uh, I don't think anybody's actually ever out and out called me unemployable, but, um, I've definitely had a few bosses who've given me that look where they just go, what, what are you doing here? And I am, I think I am quite proud of the fact that I just, uh, I just, I can't do that kind of conforming molding kind of, Like, uh, you know, I'll just tell you the line and do whatever you tell me to.

I've, I end up being basically just a complete nuisance when I have proper jobs and I have, I've had them in the past and, uh, you know, I've never got fired from them, but, um, it's always like, yeah, but why are we doing it like that? They, they, they don't like that. That's that's, you know, if someone, [00:10:00] I, I I've butted my head in normal jobs a and, and it's usually because like, I want to understand.

And it's amazing how anti question people are, right? Why is my favorite question? And I, I drive my friends insane with the word why, because I'm convinced most people have no clue why they actually do most of what they do. I absolutely cannot argue with you. So much of what we do is automatic and we don't sort of think about it.

And, you know, like genuinely some of the time that's good. You know, if you're overtaking in your car, you should automatically check your mirrors. Without thinking about it. But when you're making, I don't know, like big life decisions, yeah, probably you should think about it a little bit more rather than just go with, you know, a belief that got lodged in your head years and years ago, and you've never really examined whether it's true or [00:11:00] not, let alone whether it's actually serving you like I, I, I buy Hellman's mayonnaise.

Why? Because my mom bought Hellman's mayonnaise because my grandmother bought Hellman's mayonnaise because my whole life we bought Hellman's mayonnaise. I don't know that it's the best mayonnaise. But that's what I buy, because that's what I've always bought. Right? I'm convinced we live a lot of our life that way.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And I mean, I'm sure it's not to the point that you'd fight somebody over, like, Ah, you're in the wrong mayonnaise can. But it would be, it would just be weird to buy, buy the other mayonnaise, wouldn't it? We can't be friends. You'd buy the wrong mayonnaise. I don't even eat mayonnaise.

I'm sorry. Did you ever read the Butter Battle Book by Dr. Seuss? Yes. Oh, uh, I'm a little bit familiar with his. Other side up, other side down. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I would have gone with, um, Jonathan, Jonathan Swift, [00:12:00] Gulliver's Travels. You know, where they basically start a war about over which, which side of the boiled egg you start with.

Are you a big India or a little India? But I, I, I'm a, I'm a Seuss fan. I'm like, I wrote my senior. In high school, I wrote my senior research paper on Dr. Seuss. We were had to pick, uh, great, our favorite authors of the 20th century or something. I wrote my report on Dr. Seuss. So, Yeah, yeah. Well, no, I mean, there is so much, so much in his writing, isn't there?

I mean, I'm, I'm a, my daughter's kind of obsessed with a, a few of the films. And, um, you know, there's a lot in those, and there's a lot of depth and a lot of stuff you can, you know, You can pull out and again, you know, I don't think we realize how important these stories that we get told when we're a kid are, how much they form, you know, our view of society, what we believe to be right and what we [00:13:00] believe to be wrong, you know, how we see the dominant culture is very much presented to us by, well, Disney.

Sadly at this point, right? Batman or Superman? I think Superman. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I read a few of the, uh, the comics when I was a kid. Um, and quite enjoyed them and quite enjoyed. It was a bit of like diversity and, uh, I sort of different stuff, not what you just get presented in the films, which were a little bit kind of.

Goodie goodie, I suppose. Every man has an opinion. They're either Batman or Superman guy. It's hilarious. It's a hard dividing line for some guys. Like my best friend and I, we can't even have that discussion. That's a nerd fight for like the next two hours. Yeah, but at least he eats Harmon's mayonnaise.

Right? Exactly. [00:14:00] So I won on the important part. Do you have a good dad joke for us?

I went to see my doctor. I said, uh, doctor, doctor, I feel like Tom Jones. And he said, Oh, you've got, uh, Tom Jones itis. And I said, is that common? He said, it's not unusual.

Oh, no. The funny thing is like about half the audience based on age group, it's going to have to go look that up.

Oh, my, my references are as out of date as Betty Bonehill. You know, like nothing for the teenagers in my conversation. Sorry about that. I think music stopped roundabout Oasis. That's okay. We, I don't have a whole lot of teenagers listening to the show, but that's okay. A lot of my references are pretty dated.

I I'm with a nine and 12 year old. You find out just how dated all your stuff is. Like it's, it's hilarious that I [00:15:00] roll. Just wait a couple more years and your daughter's gonna get that eye roll down to a science of, like, dad, I was, I was once in, um, the, uh, the library doing some research on one of those like, uh, microfilm machines where you've got the old newspapers and they, they've got photographs of them and like, it being a big photograph at you so you can read it and you gotta scroll through.

They were quite good fun to use. And I was sitting there and, um, they, they were doing a tour of the library for some, uh. Primary school kids. So like eight, eight, nine, something like that. And, um, she came around and she said, Oh, do you mind if I explain to the kids what you're doing? I'm like, no, not at all.

Uh, help yourself. And she said, right. Duncan's looking at some film and they all looked at her blankly. And she was like, film, you know, it's what used to be in cameras. And I was just like, yeah, it's what used to be in cameras before they were born. These kids probably don't even know what newspapers are.

So. [00:16:00] Oh my goodness. That was so much. I remember so much like the Dewey Decimal System and learning how to use microfiche. Now we just Google everything. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh no. I can't even be bothered to Google it. I just YouTube now. Right. It is like the number two search engine in the world at this point.

For good reason. Like you can, YouTube at this point. Yes, large swathes of my bathroom only work because of YouTube.

What is the most annoying slogan or catchphrase you remember growing up?

Ooh, um, I don't, I don't think this is going to cross the Atlantic very, very well. Uh, there's this wood stainer called Ronseal. Um, and the slogan for that was does exactly what it says on the tin, which at the time was, was quite annoying because everybody said [00:17:00] it and it was just like everywhere. But now I've kind of like, it's, it's got a bit of a renaissance because now nobody's heard of it anymore.

You can say it. And it sounds like some like bit of wisdom that you've chucked in there. Like, Oh, it does exactly what it says on the tin. And you're like, yes, I am a genius. Thank you. What is your best playground insult?

The playground expression that I learned from my daughter is not really an insult, but she says jolly goshlings quite a lot. And I have no idea where that comes from, but it just sounds wonderfully kind of like, I don't know, hipster Victorian kind of jolly goshlings kind of a thing. So, uh, yeah, I got to work on my insults.

Oh my goodness. I'm, I'm not even sure that will cross the Atlantic. I'm not even sure how to translate that.

I talked to a lot of people across the pond. But wow, that one's jolly goshlings. [00:18:00] I'm gonna throw that at my kids later today. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Lay down the jolly goshlings on them. See what happens. Right, yeah. I may throw that down in the morning when my daughter and I are walking for our fundraiser. Jolly good.

She's like, what are we great. That'd be like really funny though. If all the kids in her school start saying it. I homeschool my kids at this point. Uh, I'm, I'm not a fan of the public education system in the U S at this point. It's yeah. I think I can see where you're coming from. There is some stuff in there that I'm just not.

On board with them sharing with my kids are trying to teach my kids. So, um, I have a really great homeschooling program that we work with. So it's not like we're making up stuff. There's actually a curriculum and, uh, but my kids are like, my 12 year old is in sixth grade this year. She'll be in seventh next year.

She's already doing [00:19:00] ninth grade work. So, um, I'm pretty happy with it, but yeah, I just, my wife and I part of ways with the public school system. I grew up in the public school system. I always loved it. I know a lot of teachers, my sister's a teacher, but post the dreaded Rona, my wife and I parted ways with the public school system.

So, Duncan, what is something that everybody needs to know about you before we dig into today's conversation? Well, let's go with the Morris dancing thing. So I am a Morris dancer. What the heck is a Morris dancer? So it's a weird, uh, British folk dancing tradition. So I, you know, they do kind of like, we have sort of made it a little bit around the world.

So you might've seen some, uh, you know, we dress entirely in white, uh, lots of ribbons, lots of bells, uh, hat with some flowers [00:20:00] on handkerchiefs. Traditional kind of folksy, uh, English music, um, dancing around in the sun. Lovely thing to do in the summer. Um, yeah, so that is, that is my hobby is. How did you even start that?

So partly Morris dancing is connected with alcohol. So when I was, uh, well, 15, nearly 20 years ago now, I walked past a pub where they were dancing and one of my friends. I was dancing with them, um, and, you know, as we were walking past, I was chatting to the person I was with and I said, Oh, yeah, Morris dancing, you know, the town I live in has got this great tradition of Morris dancing, you know, maybe one day I'll start doing it.

And we went off and we, we had some lunch and then as we were coming back, we walked past the same pub. My friend has stopped dancing now and he, he spots me and he's like, Oh Duncan, [00:21:00] come over here. When are you going to start Morris dancing? And of course the other person I was with said, Oh yeah, he said he really wants to.

And it's like, just like no choice there. And, um, yeah, for a long time, uh, it was a great way of indulging my heavy drinking. Okay. That makes a little more sense now. Now guys, I got to throw this out there in this episode. We're going to be discussing alcohol and drinking alcoholism, stuff like that. And so full disclaimer, you know, we're not doctors.

This is not medical advice. If you. Need help with something. We highly recommend that you consult with a doctor or professional if you're struggling with any kind of medical issue. Uh, cause that's obviously not us. Just listen to the tone of the conversation. Now we've been getting to know Duncan just a little bit, who he is and how, how he ticks and the next part of the show, we're going to dive into his book, real men quit and the lies of alcohol.

Uh, now Duncan, I have to say, I [00:22:00] read a lot of books for my show. Uh, as you know, when, when we connected. I told you, I, I'm, I require myself to read a book before I'll talk about it on the show. Let me tell you, I, I had a lot of fun with your book. I really enjoyed reading it and I went, wow, this is written for men.

Like I read a lot of, I didn't know there was such a thing as writing specifically to a male audience. But like, I barely got in past the, I got in the intro and like the first chapter, and I literally said, yeah, out loud, my wife looked across the living room at me and I was like, I'm going to enjoy this book.

And I was disappointed. I enjoyed the entire book. Uh, like I'm having to re I'm now rethinking, I've been working on a book for a while. I'm like rethinking the way I, I wrote, it's like, wow, I need to take some writing lessons from this guy. Cause like, it was [00:23:00] so geared towards men and the way we think and read and process.

Uh, so kudos on that. That was, that was amazing writing. That's a, you got a lot of talent right there. Oh, thank you very much, man. I really appreciate that. And. You know, I think it's one of the weaknesses that we have as men is we sort of our default thinking is man Well, it's like mankind man equals, you know human.

It's like the default and uh, that means that we we design chairs that don't really fit women, but actually it has you know, it has problems for us because it means when we write, we don't write specifically for ourselves. We believe we're writing for everybody. And the one thing I can absolutely assure you is that if you try and write for everybody, you write for nobody.

Right now, guys, we're, we're, let me tell you upfront, gentlemen, we're barely going to scratch the surface on this book. There's [00:24:00] so, so much more. So, You need to either read it or buy it for a friend who you think needs to read it or a family member. If you got a male you care about in your life that you wouldn't think for a minute that maybe their drinking is a little bit excessive or maybe they're heading down that party road where they're just starting to hit that young stride for some of the younger guys and they're like partying more and more.

Just get the book. Save the time. It will be on the bookshelf on the website like the other books. Real men quit. You can buy it on Amazon. We'll have links below to find it. Uh, because we are, we're not gonna be able to even really scratch the surface on all this. So I highly encourage you, if you've got a mate who could use a little love that he will take, like this book is it.

Alright, now I talk to men all the time and I feel like a noob at how well you actually gear the writing towards men. Like I said, it was Incredibly, it was like, wow, I've never actually read [00:25:00] a book where I was like, fuck. Yeah, this was written for me, man. I'm in Oh, cool That that's really nice to hear and I mean, I think it's one of the problems with uh, The sober space in particular that a lot of the writers out there are uh, women, you know And there were some women doing some fantastic Tastic work and you know a lot of respect to them and I love what they do, but I kind of look at it now You know nine years sober I understand it in a very different way to when I was actually drinking and really there's not a lot of stuff out there that was written by men for men.

Because, again, we tend to fall into this trap that a lot of guys, they'll write, and they'll write it for everybody. So, yeah, it was really important to me to do something that, you know, appealed to men and talked to them about the things that they're interested in. So, yeah. You know, there's quite a bit of sports and James Bond, but Star Wars, and yes, [00:26:00] there are some really awful jokes, you know, the proper dad jokes in there.

I loved it. I, it was, it was really well written. I actually have a couple of friends. I'm going to share it with, uh, I have a friend who is celebrating 12 years sober, but he now works with a lot of guys who are in recovery. Um, and I think this will be a big blessing to him. So I'm going to share the book with him.

Uh, So let me, I'm going to get ahead of myself. This is what happens when I don't like my notes. Um, why? Right. I, I won. Okay. Brain's totally rattled now. So one of the things that I've discovered in the last couple of years is that, right. Uh, most thing, most traditional therapy is designed for women, right?

I worked with a team that created a mental health app just for men. [00:27:00] Like it, it is so like male. It's unreal. So. And I found there are several areas in life where the basis of the service we encounter are the way we approach things are designed from very female perspective and as part of the reason we're not reaching men on certain things.

So you wrote with men in mind and you already said, because there's not a lot, but why, why this book, right? There's so many books on recovery. There's so many books on, uh, yeah. Why, why, why did you need to do this? So that honestly, there's, there's, there's a lot of reasons, but one of the most significant, I think was.

I worked with this guy who was in the special boat service, which is sort of the British equivalent of the Navy seals. And he was, you know, he was a tough guy and he was very [00:28:00] disciplined, full of willpower, full of what I think you guys would probably refer to as intestinal fortitude. And like, he really had everything in his life sorted out.

apart from drinking. And, you know, he was an absolute pleasure to work with because, uh, you know, he had that can do attitude. But what I really learned from him was that if somebody as strong as him can get caught out by alcohol, Then we all can if somebody as disciplined and full of willpower and sort it out as as him can get caught in alcohol You know, then we all can and uh, you know having a problem with drinking does not make you weak It does not make you less of a man You know It just means you've got a bit of a problem and you probably need a little bit of help to sort it out And I think he really inspired me to to share with people, you know, that there is a huge range of people that, um, have problems with drinking and not [00:29:00] just the kind of typical alcoholic on the street drinking, you know, meths out of a paper bag.

And so to just kind of show guys that they're not alone, you know, you might be sat in a different seat in a different, house in a different city, but you know, you've got the same poison in your glass and you've got the same rubbish in your head as the rest of us. And you are not alone.

Duncan, I'm going to, if you don't, well, that's okay. I'm going to catch you off guard with us. Do you have some stats for us? Because this is a very male problem. Um, there are women who struggle with drinking, but this is a very male problem. Oh, yeah, absolutely. We lead the way, you know, so it depends who you listen to, but men are probably two or three times more likely to have a problem with drinking.

than women. Uh, if you look at the World Health Organization, some of their statistics [00:30:00] say that if you put four drinks on the bar, three of them are going to be drunk by guys. One of them is going to be drunk by a woman. So we are drinking the vast majority of the alcohol that's sold around the world. Uh, the average man, according to the World Health Organization drinks 19.

4 liters of pure alcohol a year. To translate that into real money. That is probably about 12, 14 beers, something like that. Um, so that's too much, you know, that, that is really a lot. There is no way you can call that low risk, um, happy drinking. So yeah, it is very, very much a male problem. I mean, if you really want to catalyze it, if you look in the UK, um, Asian women, uh, you know, 2.

6 percent of them develop a problem with, you know, Um, drinking white men, it's 30. 8. So it is an order of magnitude different, you know, let's [00:31:00] talk social expectations. We kind of touched on this off camera, but one of the things that I just was taken with your discussion in the book, cause I don't want to say it's an argument.

That's not accurate your discussion in the book and and I love it. You're both confrontational and non confrontational. The book is That the societal expectations on drinking are Screwed up. Let's just say that right? So let's talk social expectations, right? You you put it very eloquently. I think it was no one questions Why you're not smoking crack, but they'll question why you're not having a beer.

And I'm paraphrasing that as it's not a direct quote, but why, why is there so much pressure to drink?

I think it speaks to a problem that we have [00:32:00] in society and there is, you know, this huge expectation that, that you're going to drink, you know, you walk through the door of the event and they hand you something and you're like, alcoholic, you know, you want to get a non alcoholic drink. You probably have to scrabble around the back and it will be a warm orange juice or something like that.

So it's just, it's unquestioned. Uh, and why do people give you such a hard time about it? Why are people so vocal? I think part of the reason is because most people that drink know that they drink too much. In fact, the statistics again, back me up. 72 percent of drinkers want to drink less. So, it creates what, you know, in the fancy psychological terms they'd call cognitive dissonance.

I'm sure a lot of your listeners have heard of it. It's a reasonably well known concept. But it's when you've got an idea in your head, um, that, uh, you believe is true. And then you've got another idea in your head that is cognitive dissonance. contradicting that, but you still believe it's true. So we believe that we enjoy [00:33:00] drinking, but we believe that we don't enjoy drinking, you know, it's great.

It helps us socialize, but it's killing us. And that kind of tension of holding those two opposing views in your head, you know, that's discomfort. That's where the, um, The, the dissonance, that's the discomfort that you get from holding these two, uh, ideas in your head. And I think that leads a lot of people to behave in a certain way where they kind of like jokingly justify their, um, uh, their, their drinking.

Cause if you actually sit back and listen to it, you're, you're an awful lot. Like, you know, people will give this little kind of he, he, he, I deserve a beer this evening. I've worked so hard. It's a stressful day. And it's always done in this kind of light, jovial kind of, yeah. way. But of course, if you're talking to somebody who doesn't drink, then it ends up turning into sort of like passive aggressive, Oh, come on, man, have some fun, have a beer.

And I think it does come from this dissatisfaction that a lot of people have with drinking. Um, and obviously, [00:34:00] that's, uh, you know, a bit of a mission in life is to kind of try and help people to reassess their drinking, find a healthier relationship with it. So, you know, they aren't constantly asking people.

why they aren't drinking. In other words, that they've got a similar sort of attitude to it towards other drugs. They see it as what it is, you know, a poisonous, addictive substance. I had a point in my life where I was a complete drunk, uh, in my younger years. And by the grace of God, I survived that because I was drinking enough to kill me every day.

Uh, but, and I've never wanted to go back that to that, but I still drink every now and then. But one of the things that's always been a guideline since that point in my life is if I, if my brain goes. You know what? It's been a rough day. You deserve a drink or you should have a drink that that's like the giant red flag.

I'm like, yeah, I'm drinking some water today. Um, uh, I, that's, that's when I don't [00:35:00] reach for the bottle is that justification in my head of going, you earned this, right? It's been a rough day. You should have it because I know that voice too well. And I think we're conditioned though, to it's a reward somehow.

And I'm not sure how, like, I actually like face pressure. I almost lost a job because I didn't go drinking after work every day. With the rest of my coworkers. Like I actually had a friend at work who was a superior to me and was like, Brent, I know you have things to do, but you need to come out with us at least twice a week.

Stay for one drink. I'll buy the drinks. I know you don't get paid as much as the rest of us, so I'll buy the drink, but you need to have at least one beer with us twice a week because like the bosses are starting to get uncomfortable because they were all drunks. Like they would show up slosh. They were all drunks.

Yeah. And you know, they're dissatisfied with the way they're living their lives. And, [00:36:00] you know, if they can't change their lives, they might as well drag you down with them. And honestly, you know, I think this hints at a much deeper problem in society and one that I'm, I'm quite surprised, you know, hasn't, hasn't come out in, you know, a really big way.

There are a lot of jobs where drinking is pretty much a part of the job. Whether, you know, that's a kind of sales job where people are expected to entertain the clients. And of course, when they entertain the clients, you know, the client, it's a rare kind of a thing, you know, it might happen once a month, but they're doing it every day.

And then they've got a drink with the clients. Cause of course, if you don't drink with the clients, the clients don't trust you. So they are then drinking every day. And. You know, you could genuinely argue that their job has given them an alcohol problem. And there are an awful lot of health implications with that.

So I'm kind of surprised that we aren't seeing more people who are suing their employers. saying, [00:37:00] look, you know, the job you gave me involved consuming so much alcohol. I have developed the following health problems and I want some money because honestly, if it was any other toxic substance, if it was asbestos, you'd get the money, wouldn't you?

Ironically, if it was acetylaldehyde, You know, you'd get the money, um, because acetyl aldehyde is a dangerous chemical, it's poisonous, you know, it's a known carcinogen, um, and if you have it in a lab, it has to be in the bottles, you have to have the risk assessments, you have to have the paperwork, you have to train the staff, and acetyl aldehyde, Is what your body turns ethanol, the alcohol bit of alcohol into.

Oh, I actually, I left that industry because there was so much pressure to drink every day or at least several times a week. And like I said, I survived being a drunk when I was younger and I knew I didn't want that life [00:38:00] anymore. I didn't want to go back to that. And so I actually left that industry for that reason, because I, it didn't matter which company I worked for in that industry, drinking was a multiple times a week thing after work, whether you wanted to or not, or you didn't survive on the team.

Yeah. And I, I mean, I think that's, that's another thing that I hear quite a lot, you know, the boss basically has a drinking problem. And therefore, if I want to get on the only real way to bond with the boss, Yeah. Is by drinking and then of course you drink to bond with the boss you get promoted you drink some more To bond with a new boss all of a sudden you're the boss and you're the one with the drinking problem Yeah, and you know, it happens across industries There there are a lot of industries that that have some serious problems with with drinking and You know, honestly, it's kind of scary.

I, um, so there was some research done recently that [00:39:00] found, uh, over 20 percent of lawyers have a drinking problem. And it's like, well, do you know what? If, um, if I end up in court for something serious, I'd like you at your best if it's all the same with you. Uh, a lot of healthcare professionals drink heavily.

Um, and I know it is very hard being a healthcare professional. There is a lot of stress involved. But trust me, drinking does not help you deal with your, with your stress. And again, you know, like if I am, I don't know, going under the knife and there's a surgeon there, again, I'd kind of like you at your best.

Hungover is not really what I'm after. Oh yeah. And then you get the functional alcoholics that literally can't do it without alcohol in their system anymore. Uh, you, you mentioned. You know, it's, uh, not going to help you. Right. So let's, let's talk marketing for a minute because I grew up in the glory days where you could still have alcohol commercials on television, uh, [00:40:00] kind of have mixed feelings about the fact that that's been like been banned and you can't really have alcohol commercials and stuff, uh, on a lot of platforms.

But TNA and like, You, you watch the commercials and you're like, Oh, I'm going to go hammer it when I get old enough, because dude, look what they're, they, they sell this picture, but it's not really accurate. I know. And you know, you say, uh, alcohol advertising isn't on television. I would say television is alcohol advertising.

I mean, we did some research recently into some Netflix originals. So we looked at 37 shows. We did interval coding studies on them to find out when, whether they portrayed alcohol in them and when it was portrayed. So the, uh, the, what we found was 86. 5 percent of Netflix original shows Branded 15 and 18 had alcohol in them.[00:41:00]

But what was most interesting about that was that the, the average time that it appeared was just under 10 minutes. Now everybody's going, well, that's not very interesting, Duncan, what are you talking about? But if you actually look at all of the research on product placement, the most effective place to put product placement in a drama.

is about 10 minutes because it gives enough people to enough time for people to settle into the story, but not too much time for them to get completely and utterly carried away. And I like, I really urge people to actually, you know, watch TV with a slightly different view, you know, actually look out for it.

So, um, we currently doing a study on Griselda. I haven't finished it yet, so I can't tell you what the results are, but I can tell you this for free. So Griselda is about, um, a cocaine dealer. There's very little cocaine in it, though. There is an awful [00:42:00] lot of smoking. And quite a lot of alcohol and quite a lot of obvious product placement.

There's one scene that just absolutely blew me away because, you know, in the media in production, you know, they, they talk about this thing called continuity to make sure that everything looks like it matches up, um, in the shots. And they had this shot of a guy and a girl, um, drinking in a bar and they were drinking Budweiser.

And I know they were drinking Budweiser because Like every time the camera moved, the bottle moved, so you could always see the label. So the continuity was totally and utterly off because the bottle was always in a different place in her hand in the shot, but the continuity was spot on because you could always see the Budweiser label.

Now, I don't have Netflix accounts. I don't have the, you know, the financial breakdown of Griselda, but I would be utterly amazed if Budweiser didn't give them some money because, you know, they were getting some great cracking advertising out of it. That, Oh, [00:43:00] I will never be able to watch that show just for, just for that reason alone.

I mean, I would urge everyone to watch it because it was quite good. I mean, it was properly violent, but you know, Oh no, no, those are those, but those are things like my brain watches the show and the continuity stuff. I I'm glad they have those people. Cause my brain picks it. The incident is not right. My brain's like, and I'm snapped out of everything.

Like I, I lose any kind of, if I'm zoned into the show, I'm out. They break continuity. I'm like, done. Uh, so that would drive me insane, but that is definitely like marketing 101, right? Keep the label in the shot, unless you're the person who did continuity for Game of Thrones. What was it? Did you see that debacle?

They, uh, had a Starbucks cup in one shot and accident. So nice. And you see, the thing is, I think. You know, you can, you can take it one step further than that. And you can look, you can look at some specific [00:44:00] examples. So I would talk a lot about James Bond because well, James Bond is cool. And yeah, because why would you not?

But the, the, the, the, the reason why I talk about him is because you don't even need to think about, I don't even need to ask you what he drinks. Everybody knows what he drinks and then you like take a step back from that and ask yourself. So like, right, let me get this straight. You think that alcohol makes you.

Sophisticated, good with the ladies, a real tough guy, and quite handy with a wolf of PPK. You know, why do you believe that? Do you believe that because it's true, or just because you watched an awful lot of James Bond films when you were growing up? And I think it was Skyfall, Heineken paid 45 million US dollars to get Heineken into Skyfall.

You know, why did they do that? It's not altruism. They aren't supporting the arts, are they? You know, it's because it works. It's because people buy more alcohol. Oh, they drink more if they see alcohol on the screens. It's, [00:45:00] it's that simple. There are, you know, the vast majority of the alcohol sold in the world comes from 10 companies.

So even if you're not drinking their brand, you probably will be drinking one of their brands tomorrow. And, uh, you know, it's, it's a one in 10 chance, which is fairly, it has a good conversion rate for advertising. You know, I, I grew up in a James Bond household. Like we, my dad loved James, my sister is a James Bond fanatic.

Like we, and I, I did, I grew up thinking, man, that is, cause we, we talk about masculinity on a lot of those channels. Like, man, that was like the epitome, the old Sean Connery, James Bond, that is a man right there. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I was going to wedge another wedge issue. Uh, who's your favorite Bond? Oh, it's Connery.

Um, I will say I'm a big Pierce Brosnan fan. They actually picked Pierce Brosnan after James, after Sean Connery before Roger Moore, but he was tied up with Remington Steel at the time, so he couldn't break contract. [00:46:00] And I, I'm a big Pierce Brosnan fan. So it's Connery than Brosnan. Yeah. Yeah. Unfortunately your best mate likes George Lazenby, but at least he eats Hellman's mayonnaise.

Bonus bonus to anybody listening who actually knows who George is. Cause like that's, that's the one off James Bond right there. There, there are a lot of James Bond people who won't even admit that was actually a movie. No guys, we have been talking about We've been talking about Duncan's book a little bit, Real Men Quit, and I know it doesn't sound like we necessarily were talking about the book, but if you're enjoying this conversation, this is what the book holds for you.

Duncan doesn't mix words, he actually makes it relatable and understandable, and his book talks about real life. In the last part of the show, we discussed Duncan's book, Real Men Quit, and the lies that society tells us that we tell ourselves about alcohol when we drink and some of the social [00:47:00] pressures involved with that.

In this part of the show, we're going to dive into a practical starting point. Now, Duncan, I love right at the beginning of your book, you, you just start really easily. I've never read a book about, uh, alcohol before where someone was, you know, arguing for not drinking where the starting of the book said, Now, I'm not saying to stop.

Don't stop. Like, okay, right off the bat, this is a very different take. How did you start at that point? So the thing is, you gotta meet people where they are, haven't you? And if you just tell people that they gotta stop drinking, then They're gonna, they're gonna stop something and they're gonna stop reading and like I, I genuinely believe that the, the only books that you'll ever find useful are the ones that you actually finish.

So, uh, the mission was to, to keep people reading and it's like, right, okay. You don't have to make the decision now, just keep [00:48:00] drinking, like don't read drunk because that's not going to work, is it? Like, I tried that with a few exams, they went badly. Um, so, you know, but, but keep drinking as you normally do, read sober, but, but, but keep drinking.

And it's the way I've always worked with people, uh, you know, one to one. That um, uh, you know, I don't I don't stop them to drink. I don't get them to stop drinking straight away we actually go through and we look at the beliefs that underlie their their drinking and we We deal with those first because I think once you've you've dealt with those it actually makes the actions a lot easier.

So People often say to me. Oh, I Like, have you, have you had any cravings for alcohol over the last nine years? And, you know, after the first couple of weeks, no, honestly, I can tell you, I have never once thought to myself, Oh, I really could do with something to drink now for the simple reason that I don't believe that alcohol would provide me with anything, you know, I, I do [00:49:00] not desire alcohol, therefore I don't get tempted by it.

So the process is to get people to that point where they no longer desire it. And if you don't desire it, then actually not drinking it is pretty easy. You made an interesting point earlier on the book where you said fear and excitement are the same thing. Now, I think that has a lot of power to this conversation.

So walk us through that, why that's important. Yeah. So if you look at the biological signals of fear, your hands get sweaty, your heart rate goes up, and your pupils dilate. If you look at the biological reaction to excitement, your hands get sweaty, your heart rate goes up and your pupils dilate, you know, physiologically, fear and excitement are exactly the same thing.

It is simply a matter of branding. And I think, you know, if [00:50:00] you, if you look at any kind of adventurous sport you've ever done, you know, you will be. fearful beforehand, but once you've done it, you will think of it more as kind of excitement and anticipation. So we absolutely have the ability to change the story we tell ourselves.

Are we afraid or are we excited? And honestly, most people are a little bit of a mixture of both. I work with people and they tend to be You know, excited about the possibility of finding a new way of living, of having more energy, having better focus, improving their relationships, you know, actually getting on with their life.

Um, but they're also a little bit nervous because they're not really sure that they can make their life work without alcohol. So, You know, we do the work and once you, you go through those beliefs and you remove the desire to drink, then the nervousness falls down and you're just left with the excitement.

Um, so, you know, sometimes I just think, well, [00:51:00] let's just start off with it. Let's just say. You feel like you're afraid, but how? Just give me a, I am excited, jump up on the table, wave your fist in the air, shout, I am excited, hoorah. Now I got a kick out of the fact, and for your next book, you can, you can reference Deadpool because like you have sections of the book really feel like that fourth wall break that Deadpool's notorious for in the movies.

Where you go from, it feels like I'm reading the book, right? And reading a book, you generally have a certain experience. And then all of a sudden you're like, Oh, he's talking directly to me. Like it, like, it feels like it jumps off the page. Like, no, I'm talking to you. Uh, and one of those things that cracked me up, you have the three bullet holes.

Uh, as your example, which is very guy thing, I loved it. And you asked even, you know, see, I told you it would make a good graphic. When you put the graphic in the book, a total fourth wall moment, but it's assumptions, thoughts, and [00:52:00] actions. And that's what you're dealing with when you're going through this process with people.

Is that right? Yeah. Yeah. So partly they're called assumptions, thoughts, and actions, because they've all got O's in them and it did make the graphic look cool. I love telling my illustrator about that one, like no pressure. Yeah. But you've got to make this one look cool, because I've already written the joke.

So yeah, assumptions, you know, that's getting to grips with what you believe around alcohol. All of that stuff that's been lodged in your head from, you know, like James Bond, from watching the Super Bowl. So, um, I think it's really important to, to note the, kind of the discrepancy in it. So, You were talking, uh, when, uh, during the break about drinking Chianti because, uh, you know, that's what Hannibal Lecter drinks and that's therefore a very cool and sophisticated thing to, to do.

So we could then say, well, you know, you, [00:53:00] uh, you know, influenced by the silence of the lambs to drink Chianti. The irony, of course, is that Anthony Hopkins doesn't drink. And, you know, all of his success came after he stopped drinking. Uh, now Daniel Craig, you know, when he was playing James Bond, he, he does drink alcohol, but I would encourage you to read Intelligence Fit, Intelligent because it's quite a good book, but it was written by Daniel Craig's personal trainer.

And he talks about all of the stuff that Daniel Craig did to get ready to walk out of the sea in casino Royale with the six pack and the trunks, right? He did a lot of will sapping, plyometric exercises. He did a lot of early starts. He did a lot of horrible gut wrenching stuff. I hope I never have to go anywhere near.

But not once did his personal trainer suggest that he drank alcohol. And it's so obvious that during the punishing training schedule and the punishing filming schedule for, uh, for all of the Bond films, Daniel Craig would have been drinking a lot less than he normally does. [00:54:00] So to create the success.

Less alcohol, almost no alcohol, yet it is used to sell alcohol. And that is so true across sport as well. You look at the most successful foot, uh, American football players. I know Tom Brady's a bit of a wedge issue. You kind of love to hate him, but you can't argue with him. He has the rings, you know, he's almost got more rings than fingers, hasn't he?

And he doesn't drink. Um, you know, look at tennis again, they always spraying champagne, aren't they? They're always advertising, uh, you know, white wine and gin and tonics and stuff like that. Novak Djokovic, most successful tennis player ever doesn't drink. Um, what do they do at the end of the Formula One?

They always spray in, um, champagne. Lewis Hamilton doesn't drink. You know, it's on and on and on. Floyd Mayweather, Cristiano Ronaldo, all of these amazingly successful sports people, they're used to sell alcohol, but they don't drink. So it's crazy. creating this mismatch, you know, it's making you [00:55:00] believe something that frankly isn't true.

And if you can just get to grips with those beliefs and understand that A, they're not true. And B, they're not serving you. They're not helping you become the person you want to be. They're not helping you live the life you want to live. They're dragging you down. So once you get to grips with those assumptions, Then you can move into the thought management piece.

Um, and yeah, that's, that's fairly straightforward, I think. Now, one of the things you shared in the early part of the book, you called the tactical change system. And I absolutely love it because Just a, the simplicity of it is, is awesome. I I'm, I have a lot going on in my day. So adding anything to my day that's not there is like, I really got to want to do it.

Right. So I love the simplicity of it, but it can apply to so many things and you apply it specifically to the book, but it can apply to [00:56:00] so many things. Would you share that with my audience? Yeah, absolutely. So I, I personally, I use it for, for a lot of things. It's something that I started using. Uh, you know to help me stop drinking So it's called the tactical change system because I like to make everything sound a little bit macho Because basically my parents didn't buy me the action man helicopter, which I think you guys call gi joe But you know what i'm talking about.

They didn't buy me that when I was a kid I never really got over it. So everything has to have this kind of like Macho kind of, uh, veneer to it, but it's pretty easy. It's about the TVA and the sea. So it's trigger action celebration. So what does that mean in terms of drinking? For example, you know, you go out to a friend's house.

That's going to be a trigger. That's going to make you think, Oh, I'll have a, have a beer. Cause you always have a beer with that friend. You might sit down in a restaurant. That's going to be a trigger. that's going to make you think, Oh, I'm going to, uh, have some wine, some Chianti, uh, and some mayonnaise, [00:57:00] Hellmann's.

And, uh, you know, or you might just feel a bit stressed or hungry, angry, lonely, tired, something like that. that you might associate that with having a drink. So that that's another trigger. So there's lots of different triggers in the world. And what normally you do in response to a trigger, the action is to drink the alcohol and what, what the tactical change system helps you do is get between that trigger and that action and do something differently.

Now, In terms of what I recommend you do is just shout real men quit and pump your hand in the air and dance like a, you know, like a warrior gigolo. Um, but I appreciate that some people aren't quite comfortable with that. So, um, I would suggest you just say in your head, real men quit. So you get the trigger, it's gonna make you want to drink.

You are gonna use a mantra like real man Quit to change the action, to get in between that trigger and that action to do something, uh, different. But it will only work if you do the see the [00:58:00] celebration bit. Now the celebration can be as simple as, um, just smiling because if you smile. Whether you're happy or not, it will pump those happy chemicals into your head.

And it's so obvious, it doesn't, you don't need to be a behavior change expert to know that if something makes you happy, something is enjoyable, you will continue to do it. If something makes you miserable, if something is not enjoyable, you You will stop doing it. And if you don't believe me, just go and hang around any gym in January, and my point will be proved.

So the celebration bit is really, really important because it turns a negative experience into a positive experience. Also, those happy chemicals are related to learning as well. So it helps you to spot the triggers a little bit more because then your brain wants more of the happiness. So it then becomes more of, um, a cycle.

Uh, so that's the, the, the basis of it. Trigger, action, celebration. The way I tend to teach people to do it [00:59:00] is just try in a no low risk situation. So when you make that first cup of coffee in the morning, you know, teach yourself to shout real men quit. Um, just as you have that first sip or as you press the button on your Nespresso machine or as the kettle boils However, you make your coffee, you know and then celebrate, you know smile and I do have to lay this on a little bit thick You know, um if you can't remember, uh To shout real men quit, you could just You just get a real man quick mug and then that would remind you wouldn't it?

No. So look, it's important to note that um, The the celebration aspect of it comes from the research of a guy called bj fog fairly famous behavior change experts If you haven't heard of him, you might have heard of some of his students. They started this small photo sharing app called Instagram so quite an influential guy really but one of the things he found out was that certain people are rubbish at celebrating You Men.

Men are generally bad at [01:00:00] celebrating. So celebrate it is the most important part. It's what turns it into that cycle. So, you know, the triggers are going to happen. You've got to find a new action and then you've got to make damn sure you celebrate it. I love it. I guys, if you're getting something out of this, if this is a helpful conversation for you, uh, I'd love for you to like, subscribe, do all that good social media crap that, you know, I hate, but more importantly, share this with somebody, share this conversation with somebody who could use it.

Okay. We're all about trying to impact lives here. And the greatest, the greatest compliment you ever give us is sharing an episode with somebody who else could use it. So if you're getting something out of it, please, please share the episode. Now, Duncan, you are a podcaster yourself. So tell us about your podcast.

Did I write this down right? The Flat Pack Sober. Yeah, so it's called Fly Back Sober because I've got this unhealthy IKEA thing going on. [01:01:00] So it's really like, like, well, I started it because I'm obsessed with what keeps people sober. So in my opinion, and I don't want to do down anybody that struggled with it, but in my opinion, it's quite easy to stop drinking.

The difficult bit is to stay stopped. Um, so what I wanted to do was interview the sober superstars and find out what it was that they were doing that was helping to keep them sober. And we've done quite a lot of research about what people struggle with. And, you know, we've created a bit of a system and all of the interviews that we do on that fit within that system and talk about various aspects that people struggle with.

And they, they share, you know, what it is. The, the things that have been protective for them and have really helped them become useful. But just doing that wouldn't really be enough because people are different and I get constantly annoyed by people out there. Like, I don't know if you've ever met them.

They go, you should definitely try yoga and [01:02:00] smoothies and journaling. Like, you are just a moron if you're not doing yoga, journaling, and smoothies, right? And the thing is, like, yoga really, really works for some people. Some people absolutely hate it. And I can tell you the difference. I can tell you whether you're going to like, um, yoga or not based simply on how you build IKEA furniture.

If you are the kind of person that just tears the box open and just gets stuck in and goes about halfway through and realize you've done it all wrong, but you just get stuck in, Then you're probably not going to like yoga. You're probably not going to like something that's quiet and still and, you know, reflective and mindful because you just want to go on with stuff.

It's like your idea of your worst nightmare and journaling. Again, I hear so many people saying, Oh, you must do journaling. You must do journaling. And most people hate journaling. However, If when you open some Ikea [01:03:00] furniture, you stick all of the screws in a line, you know, you get all of the pieces out.

You look at the picture on the front, you read the instructions cover to cover, you assess the situation, you reflect on it, and then you start doing it. You'll probably like journaling because you're quite reflective and it will play to your strengths, you know? Um, so you should absolutely give it a go but uh, you know what we wanted to do was was find a way of helping people to understand the advice that we were giving them and not feel bad because Like, you can't journal, you can't do smoothies, and you can't do yoga, you're a failure, you might as well drink again.

You know, and I wanted to really get beyond that and help people to understand a little bit more about who they are and how they work, but also who the guests are, how they work, and you know, if what You know, if it makes sense to you go and do it and if it doesn't just ignore them, you know, like, honestly, you don't have to journal if it works for you do it, but [01:04:00] you don't have to, it's not a legal requirement.

I didn't know those people even exist, like the line up all the screws and put it out. I thought that was like an OCD thing that like, So what's your technique? Oh, yeah, I just tear everything up and dump it all out. But I've been building things my whole life, so I'm putting together, I, I build all my own furniture.

Like I, I don't buy shelves. I, I just build them in my house. Yes. I don't buy shelves. I buy wood. Yeah. Nice. Uh, I, I grew up doing it. Like I, I built stuff my whole life. So we had a full wood shop when I was a, in a high school. My mom did like the Woodcraft stuff. You see it like the, what do they call 'em?

Uh, the farmer's markets and stuff like that. So my sister and I would do all like the cutting and the sanding of the shapes and stuff, and she would do all the painting and stuff. I grew up very hands on building things. Yeah, yeah. Don't, don't, don't do yoga. I [01:05:00] mean, I actually love yoga. Ah, damn. I'm bad at staying on top of it, though.

Like, I'll do it for a while and then I stop because I get busy. But I love the analogy. I didn't know there were actually people who took the time to actually read instructions. Oh, yeah, yeah. So there's four, there's four types. You've got the people who lay everything out, you've got the people who get stuck in, you've got the people who sit down with a cup of tea and read the instructions cover to cover.

They like books. Um, and then you've got the people who, uh, will ask for help. Now you have to be quite careful because there are other people who just want someone else to do it. They are not the ones that ask for help, but there, uh, you know, it is a legitimate, um, kind of approach to solving your problems, like, who are you going to ask who can help you do it?

Well, I think we all need some help sometimes. Duncan, what's up? Do you know, I think that's, that's been a huge part of my, uh, My own journey, um, and I will use the word sobriety here, but what I really [01:06:00] mean is life, you know just to go from that point of saying look I can do everything, you know and Change the question.

The question is no longer for me. How can I do that? The question now is Who can I get to do that? Duncan, what's on the horizon? What's the next big project coming up? So there's a, there's a couple of really exciting things. One of them that I don't really kind of want to talk about too much, bit of a secret, um, working with somebody else doing some amazing change, uh, behavior change work, Um, which I think is going to be awesome.

But, um, the bit that like is taking up an awful lot of my time at the moment is we're working more with companies and organizations. So most companies have figured out that wellbeing is a good idea, you know, like, Oh yeah, obviously you've got a moral responsibility to ensure that your staff are happy and healthy, but actually it affects the bottom [01:07:00] line.

Doesn't it? You know, healthy staff are more productive, healthy staff are more engaged. And they stay longer so that reduces recruitment costs. Um, however, there is this massive blind spot in well being. Very, very few well being programs touch alcohol. Most of them are too scared to even mention it. And honestly, If you haven't addressed your drinking, then yoga is not going to help you.

Neither is a smoothie or a journaling, you know, don't buy blackout blinds. Don't get yourself one of those really big water bottles deal with your drinking rebalance that. So what we want to do is kind of build alcohol awareness into wellbeing programs, um, in organizations to actually, you know, make the wellbeing programs more effective, but also to, to get to some of the people who are drinking.

They're not like flat out dead problem, real severe drinkers, but they're on the way. And if we can get to them sooner, then, you know, we can stop them, uh, [01:08:00] going over the edge. And I think that's, that's where a lot of the, the real good work that we're doing is with those people who are drinking a bit more than they should, but not so much that they think it's really, really a problem.

But. You know, all it takes is something unexpected tragedy in your life, or just, you know, a few years sometimes it's just the passage of time will push you, um, over the edge. So, uh, yeah, doing the work with, uh, with companies and organizations. That's, that's really exciting at the moment. Excellent. I like it.

I like it. More companies. I'm I'm all for a return to companies actually giving a crap. I'm I'm like if you go back 5060 years right to You know my dad's early years and like my grandfather's later years in life. You were a lifer, right? There, there were, you know, actual, like you stay with the company, you stay there for 25, 30, [01:09:00] 40 years and did your thing and the company took care of you.

Right. They were rewarded that kind of thing that almost doesn't exist anymore. And so I've loved, I love seeing companies swing back towards. We care about you. We care about your wellbeing. We understand you have a life. Yeah. And it's, it's so important. Um, I mean, I used to, um, but one of those, those, those jobs that I used to reluctantly have, um, I used to do induction programs.

So I used to train people. To do a particular job in healthcare. And, um, I would often, I would always start with like, why are we here? What are we here for? And they're like, well, we're here because my manager told me to come into this training room. And I'm like, no, no, no. Right. Why are we really here? Oh, well, we've got to learn the skills of the job.

No. Why are we here? Well, I've got to do this. I've got to learn the skills so I can get good at the job. Yeah. But why'd you want to get good at the job? Uh, because I'll enjoy it. Yes, that is why we are here because you never meet people who are genuinely satisfied. You don't [01:10:00] enjoy their job and that's the attitude that companies need to have.

You know, we want to help people to enjoy their job. Yes, there is an obvious payoff to it. But actually I think let's take a step beyond that and let's. Like see it as a moral obligation to make sure that the people that work for us are well looked after and that they actually derive some satisfaction from their work because, you know, it's just, it just, it's horrible.

Do you want to be. part of an organization that dooms people to, to hate their lives. I love it. Duncan, where's the best place for people to connect with you? So I'd love to offer your readers a free copy of Get Over Indulgence, which is my, my first book. It's, Not quite as blokey as Real Men Queer, I am afraid.

Um, there are less references, there are no references to fleshlights in, uh, Get Over Indulgence. But [01:11:00] it is funny, it does have jokes. Um, and it's quite short. Uh, so if you, if your listeners just put getover. uk into Google, That'll take you to a little bit of our website and there you can download, uh, the PDF or Kindle, or if you can stand listening to me for three hours and 45 minutes, uh, you can download the audio and I will apologize now for the silly voices, but yeah, just put getover.

uk And that does take you to a bit of our website. Um, so download the book, but also have a, have a look around. We've got some, um, tools that might be able to help you some, uh, you know, articles, links to Flatpak Sober, um, some of the work that we do. And of course, all of the socials on there. Um, but if you want to grab a copy of, uh, Real Men Quit, it's on Amazon.

Just put real men quit into Amazon and, um, it will be delivered to your door by a drone in about 35 seconds. Not if you live where I do. No, or on the, you know, where I do, but in a [01:12:00] couple of days, uh, guys will have links. Of course. It will be on our library shelf on the website as always with links to Amazon where you can get it.

And I'll have links down in the show note or the description, whatever platform you're joining us on today, uh, where you can get Duncan's book. And I highly, highly recommend it. It's a great book. I know you're all really concerned about what type of sportsmen are most likely to get anal and rectum diseases.

I know I am like, that's, that's a, I didn't know that was a possibility. And so I'm really over like hauling, what do I do in my life? Hmm. No, I'm removing anything that puts that as a possibility. You did say competitive cyclists and you would think that that is absolutely the go to. The answer is water skiers.

There we go. I'm glad now that I don't water ski. Right. You know, I thought. It makes, it makes the frequent bruises that I get from falling off my inline skates look like Nothing at all [01:13:00] I my my best friend was a water skier growing up like he they took me water skiing all the time with him when I was a kid I never understood it.

I was like, I twisted my knee twice trying to get up on the skis and I was done. Like, it was like, I was done with water skiing. Now I'm glad, like, I'm totally glad. Yeah. You dodged a bullet there, my friend. I totally feel lucky at this point. Duncan, we've, we've covered a lot of some serious subject, not necessarily a serious way, which I love, but if our listeners heard nothing else today, what is the most important thing you want them to hear today?

I just love everybody to realize that they're enough. You know, you have everything inside you that you need to live a happy, healthy, productive, meaningful, amazing life. You never needed the alcohol because my friend, you are enough guys for myself and Duncan. Thanks for hanging out with us today. Thanks for joining us on conversation.

Be better tomorrow. [01:14:00] Check out this other one I'll have in the show notes for you. I'll talk to you soon. This has been the fellow man podcast. You're home for everything man, husband, and father. Be sure to subscribe so you don't miss a show. Head over to www. TheFallibleMan. com for more content and get your own Fallible Man gear.