Carving Your Own Path: Building a Category of One Business or Idea

Embracing the Unconventional: Lessons from the World Podcast Network's Founder

D Brent Dowlen: [00:00:00] Have you ever heard of the concept of a cat one premise? If you've never heard of the idea, Cat One Premise is a simple idea. The idea of your undertaking business or product being a category of one meet truthfully one of a kind. These ideas are considered unicorns. Entrepreneurs dig for this goal because they're ideas to succeed, that flourish, that make people rich and famous.

These are the ones you hear about. What does it take to build out a Cat One Premise idea? That's the question we're going to answer for you today on this episode. I have entrepreneur, we'll see if I can say it right. Musician, podcaster, producer. Bruce Chamoff, Jam off. I told you, I'm going to say it wrong.

Bruce Chamoff, Bruce going to help us answer the question, Bruce. Welcome to the

Bruce Chamoff: album.

D Brent Dowlen: We have

Bruce Chamoff: podcasts. Thanks, Brent. I'm glad to be here. Thanks for having me.

D Brent Dowlen: Bruce, let's, let's start with a big one. When you started the world podcast network, which started as the Long Island podcast network years ago, did you [00:01:00] realize that you were building a category one business?

Bruce Chamoff: Yeah, actually I did. It was one of. The opportunities that were not taken by a lot of people. Podcasting was still brand new and everybody is promoting their podcast, but there were no. Podcast directories or networks around. And I'm going to open up with saying what I say in every podcast interview. I am a web developer who is also a marketing person.

And most people are either one or the other. So when I get an idea, I sit down, I code it. It's on the website within a week, if that, and it's, it's live. And I make it live very quickly. I do very little testing. I do testing, but not as much as I should. And I don't have to talk to a web developer. You know, I, I get the idea and it goes live and I'm proud of that.

And whenever [00:02:00] I get that idea, it is a cat one premise. I

D Brent Dowlen: love it. Bruce, we all grew up in a world where the idea was work hard to be better, better than everyone else, better than the other students, our classrooms, better than other people in our careers. Better than the competition because that's how to be the best.

Do you believe in better, or do you believe in, or subscribe to the idea of different is better than better?

Bruce Chamoff: I think that better. Is better different, particularly is not better because you can be different and be worse too, or not gain any traction between better and worse. So I feel that if you do something differently and you're proud of it, it's better.

It's that simple. If you're not proud of it and you have no confidence in it, then it's not better at all.

D Brent Dowlen: Now guys, before I go all the way down that rabbit hole, welcome to the podcast [00:03:00] where we dive into everything about being a better man, husband, father. I'm excited to have Bruce Chamoff I told you I'll blow this over. I'm excited to have Bruce on the show, the CEO and founder of the world podcast network, uh, I believe it's the largest private private podcast network in the world, and this has been a long time coming.

I met Bruce years ago. Uh, when I got signed up for his network, I got my show listed on, at the time it was the New York podcast network, I believe.

Bruce Chamoff: That's right. Yeah.

D Brent Dowlen: In the very early days of my show. It was the first attempt at any kind of marketing I ever did for the show. And Bruce and I have emailed back and forth many times over the years and got it back and forth a couple of times.

But. This has been a long time coming, having you on the show. Now, Bruce, I got a couple important questions to give us some context just about who you are for our listeners. Uh, before we deep dive into this category, [00:04:00] one premise idea in your own words today, who is Bruce Chamoff?

Bruce Chamoff: Bruce Chamoff is an out of the box thinker who loves to be creative and build things or create things.

He's never satisfied with standing still and he just loves to travel, uh, do public speaking and anything that gets him in the spotlight. That's the most broadest answer I can give. You

D Brent Dowlen: know what? I like it though. It's actually very well thought out. A lot of people struggle with that question, including myself.

So I've had that turned back at me a few times and be like,

Bruce Chamoff: Well nobody likes to talk about themselves, but I feel that if somebody's asking you about who you are Then that's it. You, you got asked. It's not like you're in a conversation with somebody you just met and you're [00:05:00] just bragging about yourself. They're asking you. And when somebody asks you, the door is open for you to talk about yourself.

That's how I look at it. But if nobody asked me, I won't say a word about myself. Now, I'll give you a very good example. I do a lot of business networking and this is for anybody who's listening. When you go to a business networking event, this is, I'm going to give a piece of advice that Probably a lot of people are not going to agree with, but if you're going to a business networking group for the very first time and nobody knows who you are, you're that new person in the room, you're that new face that's, that nobody's familiar with, but all the other people have been going for years and they all know each other.

Don't bring any business cards. Okay. That is probably a piece of advice that I'm sure a lot of people's mouths are dropping open because when you go to a business networking event, the first thing you think of of taking [00:06:00] are your business cards. But here's why I say this, because you're the new person in the room.

Technically, nobody even knows who you are. They might be curious. I feel that until you establish familiar familiarity, say that word, it's best for you to ask for everybody else's business card. And then maybe the second meeting or the third meeting, take your business cards. And I felt that way because I was at a networking event that I actually knew all the people.

And this one woman walks in and know what she did? She said, here's my business card. Here's my business card. Here's my business card. And she walked away, didn't even ask us about who we were, didn't even ask for a business card. And to me, that was the most unprofessional thing. So it just dawned on me, if you're the new, if you're the new kid on the block, then make friends, you know, don't intimidate people.

So yeah, I, [00:07:00] I have no problem with that question, you know, who is Bruce?

D Brent Dowlen: For clarity for people, what do you do for a living?

Bruce Chamoff: So by trade, I'm a web developer and I've been doing that for 29 years. I've built over a thousand websites when I was at Delphimite with a company called HotWeb Ideas that I really have made inactive because the World Podcast Network has taken on a life of its own.

And I've managed web teams for the NBA, the Radio City Rockettes, and even National Enquirer. Wow. So, yeah, I've been, I've had a big career in web development and management.

D Brent Dowlen: That's amazing. What is a podcast network for anyone listening who doesn't write? Cause we're not necessarily talking to a bunch of podcasters here.

So for those of us outside of this world, what is a podcast network? [00:08:00]

Bruce Chamoff: A podcast network can be thought of as a podcast directory or even the catalog. That's not really a big term. It's basically a directory of podcasts. It's probably it's base, it's, it's lowest definition, but a podcast network can offer a lot more than that.

As you know, cause you're on the network. You see what we do. There might be a guest exchange. So for people who want to get onto podcasts, They can join a guest exchange that is built by the podcast network. And the way we do is we integrate both at the same time. Um, it might offer monetization for today's ads, inserting ads into your podcast, which we do.

Um, and other types of marketing. Remember that the podcast network is doing its own marketing. [00:09:00] And getting people to come. So what they do is they try to also market the shows on their network so they can offer them to the visitors. And that's kind of what I guess the, the, the main service of the podcast network is to market the podcast more than what they're doing already.

D Brent Dowlen: Bruce, what's something that everybody should know about you before we get into the meat of today's show? I like sushi.

Bruce Chamoff: Hey, that works. Good

D Brent Dowlen: cheap sushi, worthwhile.

Bruce Chamoff: Yeah, that's something people, most people don't know you,

D Brent Dowlen: you started what's now the world podcast network the same year as Apple podcast. Is that like coincidence or like, was that before or after or right about the same time? How did that fit in?

Bruce Chamoff: I don't know if that's true. I think Apple started iTunes, but they didn't have, they didn't get into podcasts yet.[00:10:00]

D Brent Dowlen: Right. They, they, they started officially. Apple Podcasts as the name didn't come out till later, right? They started putting podcast on iTunes in 2005.

Bruce Chamoff: I see. I did not know that because I was using iTunes strictly for music. Mm-Hmm. . And then I noticed that a software, a firmware update on iPod when I had the iPod back then.

Um, I don't know where my iPod is these days, but. It's, I mean, we don't need it anymore, right? But it was, I remember seeing podcasts after a firmware update. But it wasn't there before. So, even the iPod was supporting podcasts. I don't believe not till 2007 or 8. Most people were using iTunes, I believe, just for music, right?

And, um, so I was not aware. I started [00:11:00] the podcast network strictly because technically I didn't, well, I thought it could be a cat one premise, but I didn't see it that way at that time. For me, it was, it was a pet project. Um, I just got into podcasting. I was, my first show was called the Fresh Music Series.

Being a songwriter myself, I wanted to promote other artists on Long Island, which is exactly what I did. And it was an all music podcast. Of course, I always threw in one of my songs at that time, but I didn't have a home recording studio. So it wasn't like my music was professionally produced at that point, but I was producing other, I mean, I was promoting other bands and became friends with a lot of them.

And then before I knew it, these artists locally from Long Island. One band was getting a listen from Texas. And from there, I knew that something was big. And [00:12:00] that's when I said, okay, let me reduce. Let me keep going with this. Um, I kept adding things. I was also a flat people remember flash. I was a flash developer.

So I created a, a radio station, an online radio station in flash. I was making money. With ads and I was doing what YouTube does now, right? So when the commercial came on, we, we froze out the, the skip button. But if a music came, if a song came on, you could skip that. I found that early on. Like, Hey, you know, we don't want people skipping ads, right?

Just what YouTube does. And we made a lot of money that way. And then of course. Flash got discontinued, it wasn't supported on mobile devices, and we had to go to another platform. And I never rebuilt it, but I just kept adding features to the World Podcast Network. Back then it was, uh, it was Long Island Podcast Network, and then In 2017, [00:13:00] we turned it into New York City.

Um, and I felt like I did not want to be limited to New York. A lot of podcasters were telling me, I don't want, I don't want to be in your network because you're only in New York. And then I got the idea. I said, you know, that person's right. Why don't I go global with this? You know, marketing is all about positioning.

It's about planting your brand in people's minds. And. If you want to go global, you can't promote yourself as with a local name. Like New York city, yes, it's a big city, but it's still local to people who are in New York city and New York state and the tri state area like Connecticut and New Jersey. So you have to think, in other words, like what I'm saying is think out of the box.

Um, a couple of, and it's good too. It's interesting what happened. with that because here in New Jersey, we have Trenton that was just a state cap, but we [00:14:00] had Trenton State College. And I heard that people would from all over the state were not coming to Trenton State College because they didn't live in Trenton.

So they changed the name to the University or College of New Jersey. Right. Well, I grew up in Freehold, New Jersey, which is also where Bruce Springsteen grew up. We had Freehold Area Hospital. And I understood that nobody outside of Freehold, which is a huge city, a huge town. Um, then again, Bruce Springsteen put that one on the map.

Nobody was going to Freehold Area Hospital from anywhere outside of Freehold. So they changed the name to Central State. Medical center. And I'm sure, I'm sure that people from all over the, you know, companies from all over the, all over the world, the country have changed their name to give a more global position.

And that's what we do with, with the podcast network. And now we're getting people from all over the world. And now we're up to something like 35 countries. So it's going [00:15:00] well, just by changing the name.

D Brent Dowlen: That's amazing. Guys, we know Bruce just a little bit in the next part of the show. We're going to deep dive into the entrepreneur entrepreneurial mindset and carving out your own path.

We're going to roll our sponsor. And we'll be right back with more from Bruce channel

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Thanks, Mike Lindell and my pillow for that. Let's get back on with the show. Now, guys, we spent some time just getting to know who Bruce is in this part of the show, we're going to just [00:17:00] dive into this mindset because to build a cat one premise project out, whether it's a new product or a company or a business, you have to get your mind right, because these are the ones that will really set you apart.

You know, the names of these products, you, we all know, we all, we were talking about the. Uh, uh, this is what happens when I go out of script, right? Uh, we were talking about the iPod earlier. We all know what iPods are, right? That was a category one premise to start with. Now everybody else was just scrambling to try and keep up.

We all know these products. We all know these companies and to build this out, it goes beyond just regular entrepreneurship. And so we're deep diving into that today with Bruce. Now, in the recent elections, Bruce, we all saw the power of podcasting this format. If nothing else came out of that election that anybody likes, I don't care.

We're not going to talk politics, but we all saw the power of the [00:18:00] podcasting format. How impressive that can be, what it can really do. Uh, in 2005, podcasting was a really new media format that was barely in its infancy at best. So. Why, why podcasts specifically? You, you have this incredible business already building websites.

And I know you were, what was it?

Bruce Chamoff: I've been asked this question on a lot of podcasts and the answer is second nations. I thought about it once. So what, what I think, well, first of all, we have to talk about why people in general get into podcasting. And I think it's about broadcasting right now. We think back about.

Going back to before podcasting, you had broadcasts, right? And the word cast is common between those two. And we think about sports podcasts, I'm sorry, sports, a sports broadcaster. I watch a lot of football. I [00:19:00] watch a lot of baseball. Last night, it was so funny. I was coming back from New York City on the train.

Meeting my daughter and into the Jersey and I got stuck listening to rowdy Rangers and Devils fans. Okay. It was loud. You had people talking. I don't, I don't, the Rangers, the Rangers played the Blue Notes, St. Louis, and I don't know who in the Jersey Devils played, but I had two hockey fan, uh, team fans with literally about 50 people each.

Talking. Think about the noise level. That's a side note. I digress. But I think that people want to get into broadcasting. They always did. You think about, you give your opinion, okay? Especially if, let's, let's use sports as an example. [00:20:00] Obviously where I live, we have the Mets, we have the Yankees. My, my sister's brother in law, his name is Kevin.

He knows everything about the Yankees. Okay, they're big Yankee fans. Okay. Now, they know all the players. Of course, the Yankees were in the World Series this year and You know the big players on the Yankees at this point and all I hear lately is about Aaron Judge, right? And And Gene and Carlos, uh, Gene and Carlos Stanton, right?

And those guys. And his name is Kevin. Kevin just goes on, and I'm like, Kevin, you would make a great podcaster. Okay? But he has no interest. But if you hear this guy talk, you know he would be a great podcaster. Give him a microphone. Okay? I'll turn on, I'll produce it. Okay? And you think about [00:21:00] music, DJs.

When you were growing up and you hear these songs on the radio, they are broadcasters, right? They're DJs, news broadcasters. You love speaking. You love, you love it. But I knew, I know myself that when I was in college, I, I would, I went to Kean College in New Jersey, which is now Kean University. And I was a big 80s metal fan.

And I used to listen to all the metal bands, which two weeks ago, we just saw Iron Maiden in Newark. So driving to college, I'm thinking to myself, I can play better music than that DJ. And there was a really cool. radio station. I'll never forget, and they're still on the air today, WSOU at Seton Hall University.

I want to be that DJ playing that heavy metal music, but my own choice. I want people to know what Bruce likes. [00:22:00] So, Going to Kean College. What do you think I did? I applied for the radio station and they were playing heavy metal They were they had a heavy metal guy. They had an alternative guy. They had a new wave guy They had a punk guy.

I want to be the 80s metal guy I want to play Juice Beast and Black Sabbath and Ozzy and all those guys. Okay, so you know what they told me? Sorry, we don't have any openings. So, I was disappointed, and it went on with my life. I never once looked back. I didn't apply, but I wanted to be a radio broadcaster.

Do you know that was 1987? And now here we are in 2005. And I'm thinking to myself, what? I can become a broadcaster again, but wait a minute, I can do through the internet and all I need is a microphone. This is a no brainer for me. Okay. This is, this is like my [00:23:00] chance to become a broadcaster again and play the types of music that I like.

Okay. That's why I think people go into podcasts. They don't get their chance to be a broadcaster. They, they don't know how to get onto a TV show or radio station, or they don't have hundreds of thousands of dollars to buy that big antenna. Put it on their and broadcast. Well, as a podcaster, you don't need to do any of that, do you?

Right. Podcasting cuts all of that out. So that's why I became a podcaster and that's why I started the Fresh Music series because now I get to actually have my own digital radio station. And let me tell you, here's a question I ask people in my podcast. Friends, I'm gonna ask you a question. Oh, I wanna see if you can answer this.

How do you define podcasting in five words or less?[00:24:00]

It's a hard, it's hard, right?

D Brent Dowlen: On demand programming.

Bruce Chamoff: That's great. On demand programming. That, that kind of sums it up. I, my definition is not too much different than that. I just say it's a digital broadcast. When you think about it, that's exactly what I just said before my story, I wanted to be a broadcaster.

Now I can do it digitally. So digital broad You know, we don't talk about audio and video and all that stuff. We just, it's a digital broadcast. You are broadcasting digitally. It doesn't matter how you do it. So, and yeah, that also makes people think it's hard. It's hard to define that in five words, but I got it down.

You got it down.

D Brent Dowlen: You stunned me there for a minute. I've had what I do enough times that I I've had to [00:25:00] try and like streamline the answer just to make it make sense. Uh, some, there's some older folks in my life. They're like, so, so what is that? You remember radio broadcasts that were those on radio, not just music, but like actual shows like, yeah, that's, that's what I do.

That's

Bruce Chamoff: that's what you do.

D Brent Dowlen: Anytime. Yeah. As opposed to when it's on air. Yes. Oh, that makes sense. You get some of the older crowd and they, they, that, that syncs up, right? You get the 60 plus 70 plus age group who actually remembers sitting around the radio, listening to their favorite show.

Bruce Chamoff: That's what I did, you know, and um, the kids today, I don't know, I don't even know if they know what a radio is.

I mean, I'm in my late 50s, okay, so I'm close to that 60s group, you know, and yeah, I did the same thing. I mean, it's, it's really, but I don't [00:26:00] know, the last time I actually turned on a radio, to be honest, I listened to Spotify or SoundCloud, I listen to music, um, being that I run a network that literally gets about an average of 50 new episodes a day, if that, um, over a thousand shows, I listen to about three to five podcast episodes on average a day.

So, I mean, I want to support the podcasters, not just as someone that's marketing them, but someone who actually supports them. You know, it's sort of a podcast network needs to support the shows. They can't just say, Oh, we're going to market you. We're going to give you exposure and monetization opportunities and all that.

No, you have to have more than that. And that's what the, what our podcast network does.

D Brent Dowlen: Well, so to that point, that's one of the things I found very interesting when I first came across the New York podcast network, as it was at the time [00:27:00] was To me, like a lot of people use Spotify or Apple podcasts.

There's still the players, but to me, that's what they are. They're they're podcast players. They're not a podcast. Spotify is trying right. And Apple's trying with some, the ability to have like private, uh, pay walls or whatever. They're trying to become more than players, but realistically they were their players.

They don't have a sense of community. They don't have a way of supporting the people involved with them. The podcasters, they don't have a way of really supporting the listeners.

Bruce Chamoff: And

D Brent Dowlen: that was one of the things that was really attractive to me about your network was like, Oh, look, this is like more of a community, like there, there's some actual interaction.

There's actual listening to the audience and the podcasters. And it was a very different experience, right? It was the first time [00:28:00] I actually saw something went, Hey, I'm not just another show here.

Bruce Chamoff: Exactly.

D Brent Dowlen: There's a way my listeners can connect with me. There's a way I can see how people are responding to it.

And so, yeah, so that, that leads me to the question of when iTunes started pushing out podcasts. Right. Was that intimidating as you were still, you know, young in your network when you realized that you were going to be going head to head with companies the size of Apple? Was that intimidating for you?

Bruce Chamoff: No, not really.

Um, I mean, there's always a little intimidation when you're dealing with anyone that's bigger than you in any way, right? But you have to in life not be intimidated by anybody because the moment you are have this part of you that wants to give up. But you can't do that. I can tell you, you were talking about Apple and [00:29:00] Spotify.

Spotify, I listen to my music on, I don't listen to Apple music, but I listen to Apple podcasts, right? And some, you know, we go, we, we go into those podcasts as we try to get them to join the network. If you look at all the SEO tools, right? Search and optimization tools. Um, you look at, like we subscribed to Neil Patel's, uh, Uber suggest, and a lot of people use SEMrush.

You'll find that Apple still has a lot more search engine rankings than Spotify. Okay? Apple has a little bit better of a community than Spotify. Spotify tries. Um, they absolutely excel in the music side. That's for sure. Um, And I don't know if you've ever watched that Netflix special on Spotify, it happened two years ago, it was really, it was how Spotify actually started, it was like an eight episode thing.[00:30:00]

And it was very cool to see what Spotify was trying to do, uh, where they serve music within one second, so music doesn't have to download. Right? Apple does the same thing, but Apple still, in my opinion, still dominates the podcast, uh, industry space. Um, I, I don't mind going against them. Okay? One thing that I'm starting to do lately is try to compete with a lot of those, uh, companies that are other networks, um, on Google.

Because to me, that's where you start getting your traffic. It could be social media marketing. But nobody goes to Facebook and say, I'm going to look for a podcast network to promote my podcast. No, they go to Google, right? Um, nobody goes to Twitter or anything like that or X now. So I, I am looking at where Apple and [00:31:00] Spotify and some of these other, uh, companies are dominating on Google and seeing how we can go against them.

You know, that's the way that's really important, I think. So no, I don't, I don't get intimidated.

D Brent Dowlen: Bruce, I think that's some really key insight right there is, uh, I, I had to, I was at a podcast conference and I don't even remember who the speaker was at the time. And they said, no one goes to Instagram to find your podcast.

Bruce Chamoff: That's right.

D Brent Dowlen: And like this, this Donnie moment, I was like under the value of understanding where you actually need to be, what platforms you need to be on for any business. Right. I, I, I do. Right. Marketing work for a friend of mine. I do some freelance work for him and we got several clients and it's like, okay, now we need them on this network and this network.

I say, no, we're not going to waste time. They [00:32:00] don't need an Instagram. They don't need this. Right. Cause that's not going to serve their customers. And so realizing that about your own business, knowing it's like, okay, I need to, I need to focus on Google. I don't need to focus on being. The best Facebook group or whatever.

Uh, that's, that's insightful. Cause I think a lot of business owners, especially early get really lost. They're like, Oh, I got to be everywhere. And you got to understand where your clients are and where you need to be, to be in front of them.

Bruce Chamoff: Yeah. A lot of people don't get that about social media marketing.

I mean, They missed it. The key word in social media marketing is not social media, it's marketing. And in order to do marketing and perform marketing effectively, you have to know marketing. Um, I have a lot of people who say, well, I know Facebook. Yeah, I can post something on Facebook, but do you know how to get it to my target market?

Do you know the demographic? Oh, what's the demographic? Well, as soon [00:33:00] as you ask me that question, I don't hire you. I, I need somebody to understand the target market, right? Because social media has, it has, it has target markets. It has age groups, right? It has genders, right? Where are women in this age group in this city and geographically, what social media are they on?

So I can market myself to them if they are my client, you know, and the same thing, you know, um, You know, you have to know every part of your, I mean, even I, I know people that are coming to my podcast network and I know the, I know a lot of demographics of the podcasters themselves, right? You see their faces.

I know their race, their color, their religion, uh, their education level. And you can see that. And then, you know, like, I look at that, I take that seriously. Because I know how to direct, uh, on [00:34:00] a podcast network, we, we track stuff. So we know when people come, we know where to direct them. You know, I'm working on an AI tool now, because AI is everywhere now.

Where if I can recognize somebody's demographic makeup to target market by their IP address, then we're going to present them with the podcast that we think they're going to be a good fit for. That's something that's going to happen on our podcast network in 2025. So I'm looking forward to that. It's going to be interesting.

D Brent Dowlen: I love to see the things you, you add one piece at a time here and there.

Bruce Chamoff: Yeah. Yeah.

D Brent Dowlen: And the analytics on your platform, I absolutely love the fact that I can go to your blog and learn about who is listening to my show, actually, uh, for the podcaster, that's incredibly important for me, very valuable that you offer.

Now, you're 20 years into this journey, right? [00:35:00] How have you, we have a lot of people don't understand what it takes to commit to something for a year. How do you lock yourself in and rock out the good and the bad over 20 years?

Bruce Chamoff: That's a good question. I, I think you just have to ride it. I mean, you have to look at the end result and think about every.

hurdle that or obstacle that you encounter and don't let it stop you. Think about a couple of ways. Um, do you go around that obstacle? Do you jump over it? Or do you let it stop you? Right? I mean, I've, I've had a lot of obstacles and I don't let them stop me. And that's, that's really how I answer that question.

D Brent Dowlen: Bruce, you had this idea back in 2005 with all the hindsight and wisdom from the experience of almost 20 years of doing this. [00:36:00] What would you wish you could tell yourself back in 2005 about doing this? Honestly,

Bruce Chamoff: Brent, what I would tell myself 20 years ago is not much different than what I would tell myself today.

And that is, um, I've always kept the same attitude. Never give up. Keep the end goal in mind. And even if something gets in your way, get rid of it, you know, or deal with it and move forward.

D Brent Dowlen: I love it.

Bruce Chamoff: I tell this to my daughter all the time too.

D Brent Dowlen: It's like the sound of ice. It's very sound. Right.

Bruce Chamoff: Thanks. It hasn't changed.

D Brent Dowlen: Guys. We've been diving into the entrepreneurial mindset and what it looks like to carve your own path as a category one business owner in this part of the show, we're going to dive into some real particulars with making this work now without going into a very long, tedious [00:37:00] explanations of the podcasting community and the world podcasting network itself, and all the incredible.

Things about Bruce's platform that make it a category one podcast platform. I go, I, I, I could spend hours telling you guys about that, but that's not what you want to hear. So you're gonna have to take my word for it. When I tell you that world podcast network is absolutely category one business.

Bruce Chamoff: Thank you.

D Brent Dowlen: In a world of 504 million monthly podcast listeners globally. Okay. That's amazing. Wow. Right. Yeah. We've surpassed Netflix subscriptions, 504 million monthly listeners for podcasts around the globe. There are less than 400, 000 active podcasts in the world and just over 35, 000 podcasts account for 95 percent of the total podcast listenership.

Bruce Chamoff: That's amazing.

D Brent Dowlen: Only 7 percent of those are independent podcasters. So like this is a, a [00:38:00] world that unless you know the details of it could seem a little, right? Like every world, if you're a welder, you know, things and understand things about your trade and your community that would blow most people's minds and bore people all at the same time.

So I'm not going to hit you with all the particulars of our industry. But trust me when I say that Bruce is in a league of his own.

Bruce Chamoff: Thank you. That means a lot coming from you. It really does. That's great.

D Brent Dowlen: It's amazing. So how did you as a business owner starting out determined that there was a real market for this new emerging technology?

What, what kind of signs were you looking at going? You know, I can really make a run at this.

Bruce Chamoff: Well, again, it's, it goes back and I'm not going to say the story again, but it goes back to my story of wanting to be a music DJ when I was in college. Um, I, it just dawned on me [00:39:00] that yes, if I think about what a podcast was back in 2005, it was like a TV show that had no channel.

It had no network. Okay. So my, my interpretation of what I was doing was creating a, A network, like a television network. And I still think that we, we started the first podcast network in the world. There were no podcast networks back then. I believe there was one that was formed in 2003. That seemed kind of weird because podcasting wasn't popular since 2005.

So I don't really know if that counts, but I wanted to build a television network of, but like a radio network, I guess, like an audio podcast. And that's where my head was at at that time.

D Brent Dowlen: I, the, the foresight to look at something like this and go, no, there's absolutely a place for this very young [00:40:00] technology, like to recognize in your own self, Hey, if I want to broadcast, if I want to be able to do that, there are other people who are going to want to do this. And there are people who are going to want to listen to it.

I mean, that's, that's incredible foresight on your part to see this and go, yeah, yeah. And you know what? I think this is going to be something, right?

Bruce Chamoff: Well, you know, yeah. I mean, when you think about it, you know, if you want to watch a TV show, you can't just turn on the TV, right? You have to tune in a channel, a network.

And that's what I was thinking at that time. Like, okay, but podcasters, they have their own URLs. Back then, most of them were blogging because you didn't have show notes. So all the show notes were going on blogs, uh, cause you didn't have Apple. Apple at that time was not doing it. And Spotify or Buzzsprout or any of those, those platforms, um, they weren't around yet.

I think [00:41:00] Libsyn was around back then. They were one of the first. And of course their platform is a lot different, but I, they were one of the only podcast platforms. And there was a few other ones. Um, blog, was it blog? What is it? The radio? I forgot which one. Blog pod, radio, uh, something like that. Uh, they were trying to get into the podcasting game, but they never quite got there.

Uh, they do have a big market, uh, but they're not as big as these other places, right? And, um, Anchor, which is now Spotify for Art, uh, with Spotify for Podcasters, uh, Buzzsprout, Podbean, all those, right? But Lipsyn, Lipsyn is still the oldest one, and they saw a really good opportunity to host. Podcasts, right?

Post your mp3s, whereas you, it kind of seemed weird in my mind that you could have got a web hosting account, right? You could have gone to GoDaddy or you could have gone to [00:42:00] Network Solutions at that point and you could have put your mp3s up there, but it just seemed a kind of a waste of space. So Libsyn kind of saw that and I respect them for that.

I always did. Um, so, but they, they were not a podcast network. They were not. So that's the opportunity I saw. And most of the podcasts that came over were Paulson and Lipson.

D Brent Dowlen: For some of our listeners, let me, let me sum it up because we haven't seen. It's funny. We've gotten kind of emerging markets with technology picking up the rate of technology developing faster and faster and faster.

So for some of our younger listeners, let me help. If I can, I had a friend back, I don't got it. I've been dating myself here back in 2003, who. Talk to me about Bitcoin, right? The [00:43:00] guy was a creative, I knew his marketer and he had this little computer running on his desk back at the time when you could run it on some tiny little nothingness like Raspberry Pi kind of quality computer at that point, because it was nothing.

I mean, they were 0. 0001 penny, right? They were totally worth and I was like, what is that? And he explained Bitcoin to me. I was like, that is stupid. That is the dumbest idea I've ever heard. I'm kicking

Bruce Chamoff: myself over Bitcoin too. I, I know, I own no Bitcoin at this point.

D Brent Dowlen: Right? And I, I totally blew him off.

Like, I, I thought it was just the most ridiculous thing I had ever heard of. It's still digital currency nonsense. But he was on top of it, right? He, he was like, no, this is gonna, this is gonna be huge.

Bruce Chamoff: Yeah.

D Brent Dowlen: That same moment. For you to go, you know, what podcasting is going to be major. And here we are 20 years ago.

Like really this year, like I said, the elections did a lot for podcasting just because we [00:44:00] saw the power of long form comment content, just raw and untold. Right. So you were way ahead of this. What was some of the challenges you faced developing this into a viable business option when you were starting?

Bruce Chamoff: There, there was no, I mean, I also didn't think much of podcasting when I first heard of it. Okay. Until I was in the bookstore, uh, Barnes and Noble, maybe it was, it might've been Walden's bookstore. I saw the book on introduction to podcasting by Blueberry Network's Todd Cochran. Okay. He. started Blueberry and he wrote the very first book.

Now when I was in the technology section at that point, I, the cover of introduction to podcasting was silver and green lettering, silver and not just a silver background. It was [00:45:00] a mirror. After you got to see your face in the book. Okay, and the green came out and it stood out among all the other Uh book covers that were there because back then you had all the dummy books, right?

Program this for dummies not for dummies, right? They're all yellow and black now all of a sudden you got silver and green I pick up the book I'm reading it. I'm like, wait a minute. I just heard a podcast. I want let me check out this book I read a couple of pages. I'm like I'm doing this. I bought the book and within a week I had my first episode.

And that was that I didn't, I didn't have the podcast network yet, but I was happy to put my first episode out there. It was kind of cool. So yeah.

D Brent Dowlen: Early, early adopter. It's, it's amazing.

Bruce Chamoff: Yeah, that's true. I'm not an early adopter for a lot of things, but [00:46:00] that was, I saw that. I, I saw that like your friend saw Bitcoin.

D Brent Dowlen: How do you measure Bitcoin?

Bruce Chamoff: One side note about Bitcoin is I was blogging. People were paying me to blog about Bitcoin and the same thing. I didn't see it. I didn't think it was going to take off. So I just want you to know, yeah, don't feel bad.

D Brent Dowlen: Hindsight sucks sometimes.

Bruce Chamoff: It does. I

D Brent Dowlen: missed that one.

Bruce Chamoff: Yeah.

D Brent Dowlen: Measure success at the different stages of a business when hasn't been done before.

Right. Normally we measure things against other like businesses, but how do you even know how to measure success? at different stages as you're growing this that no one's done before.

Bruce Chamoff: I think success comes from your satisfaction of anything you've done. And that's really it. I mean, [00:47:00] you don't have to, it doesn't have to be about making a million dollars or making your business.

So you can quit your nine to five job. It success is whatever you do where you say, Hey, I accomplished something and it might not be 100 percent like you still might have goals in mind. And I think it's normal to have goals. It's normal to say, Hey, I didn't reach my 100 percent goals cause I got more goals.

That's just life. You know, you, you get bored of where you are. You want to do something different and you define whatever that is. If you reach those goals. That's your success.

D Brent Dowlen: Realistic goals. Oh my goodness. Still unreasonable, Bruce.

Bruce Chamoff: Oh, hey.

D Brent Dowlen: Don't, don't you know it's all about the bank account.

Bruce Chamoff: Yeah. Did you, uh, I know you're in the middle of asking me questions, but did you, did you see my question to you a couple of weeks ago? I do invest [00:48:00] stocks. You invest in stocks?

D Brent Dowlen: I did. I did.

Bruce Chamoff: Okay. And you know why I asked that question, right?

D Brent Dowlen: I do.

Bruce Chamoff: Okay. So that's my next venture.

D Brent Dowlen: Next venture.

Bruce Chamoff: It's a virtual podcast stock market. It's already live too. Oh,

D Brent Dowlen: today I was like, Hmm, where am I doing? It's a very new concept again. You're, you're out there doing your own thing, pushing something that no one's talked about, no one else has done.

And you just keep nudging forward going, you know what? We're going to do this and it's going to be awesome. And we're going to do this and it's going to be awesome. You just keep putting what, what keeps you wanting to innovate?

Bruce Chamoff: I don't know. I'm just an out of the box thinker. You know, I, I like creating new things.

I'm creative. I'm productive. You know, I. [00:49:00] I've always been like that. Um, my father, uh, let me go back to him. I think he was kind of my inspiration. Uh, may he rest in peace. He passed away in 2005. He never saw me launch the podcast, unfortunately. He was an accountant, not a CPA. He never became a CPA, but he was an accountant and he had hundreds of clients and he did income taxes.

And one day. He said that he was going to start a payroll company and compete with ADP. Okay. ADP in the payroll industry is like Apple in the podcasting world. Okay. So he was going to compete with them. Uh, and he did that. He, nothing stopped him. Maybe he just wanted to be a payroll company. You know, they have, you have other payroll companies, you have paychecks and some other ones too.

But. He wanted to compete with those two. And by the time he passed away, he had like 300 clients. And what happened before he passed away, [00:50:00] he sold his clients to ADP. And so that's, and he died of cancer. So he had cancer when he had cancer. He said, he knows he's not going to live that much longer. He's sold all his clients ADP left, uh, you know, left my stepmother with all this money and that was that, you know, so Sometimes you can know your competition becomes your customer or they come become some kind of partner of yours You know that might happen and I When I when I was when I was a lot younger in college I worked for him and my daughter works for me on the podcast network.

She does a lot of maintenance There's a, the World Podcast Network requires a lot of daily maintenance, uh, so I, I feel like I'm giving back to my father by having my daughter work for me, but when I work for my father, I ain't doing marketing, uh, and I don't really call it marketing. I, he had tele, he was doing, [00:51:00] uh, direct mail campaigns.

There was no internet. Nobody was, you know, doing mailing lists and email and MailChimp and all that stuff. So we didn't have email. So I was putting together letters, um, folding them up, getting my mailing lists, putting, you know, putting their, uh, typing out the labels and slapping it onto the envelope and throwing it in the mail.

That's what we did before the internet. And, um, that, but it was interesting how what went through my mind when I did that was, wow, my father knows marketing and that's what I was majoring in in college. Right? So I feel that a lot of what I do is my inspiration from him, you know, and I really hope I'm giving that to my daughter.

I really hope that she has my ambition. She doesn't yet, but she, she is getting there, sort of. So, um, I just hope that. One day she'll say, yeah, I want to start this company. And I have this idea and I I'd be like, okay, I'm going to help you. [00:52:00] You know, I was there. I did it. Your grandfather did it, you know, let's keep it in the family.

So

D Brent Dowlen: I think that as dad, that's one of the things we hope, right. Is that we. Influence our children in such a positive way. By the way, we set example, uh, it's one of the reasons I want to be in business for myself is I wanted to show my daughters another option than going to work for 40 to 60 hours a week, which I did for years and years and years for somebody else.

Bruce Chamoff: What did you do when you were doing like a nine to five job?

D Brent Dowlen: Uh, I spent over a decade doing data center support, working in large data centers, fixing servers and stuff like that.

Bruce Chamoff: Okay. Oh, you said you were in it, right?

D Brent Dowlen: Yeah. Yeah. I, I did a lot of hardware, uh, work. I did a lot of setting up and connecting servers to networks.

We, we would, well, a lot of the end of getting the server ready for [00:53:00] the end user to be able to put their application on it and run it and then fixing it, troubleshooting things. When, when things went down, re imaging, whatever needed to be done to get them ready for the next client or the next service that needed it.

Bruce Chamoff: That's cool. Yeah, that's something I have no expertise in

D Brent Dowlen: You you'd figure it out pretty quick. I I have a feeling It's not it's not the Really? It's I was a supervisor. So I was an escalation point. Um, I I trained a lot of guys with zero I was also the So I trained a lot of zero it experience to do the job, uh, to me, it was three level, but, and then you had to gain some experience where you could actually troubleshoot some stuff, but you know, it's all doable.

Yeah, that's cool. Has there been a moment along the line where you were like, you want to just throw up your hands and walk away? [00:54:00]

Bruce Chamoff: Um, yeah, I'm not going to lie. I mean, I think everybody gets that from time to time. Um, I feel like I get that if I don't reach my goal fast enough and then sometimes I think, you know, maybe I just want to keep on going and see if this thing will succeed before in my lifetime.

You know, um, I want that to, I want, I want that to happen. I don't give my chance, I don't give myself a chance to fail. Um, I don't, I don't believe that what most people think, I don't believe that failure is the opposite of success. You would, you know, it, it makes sense why people would think that, but failure really is, I think, I think the opposite of failure is persistence.

When you think about it, right? Success is kind of an end result. So is failure, but I don't give my chances a [00:55:00] chance to fail because I am a persistent person. And if you're persistent, well, if you're not persistent, then you're going to stop doing it because you find some kind of obstacle. And you, and you, you only fail when you say I fail.

You only fail when you say I give up, right? It's either that or you're persistent. Success comes later. That's what I think. So that's how I look at it.

D Brent Dowlen: Now, gentlemen, if you're enjoying the show, if you want to get Bruce to know, to know Bruce a little bit better, be sure and check out our meet the guest playlist on YouTube, and don't forget to grab your free companion download, no email required.

It's on our website. It's got actual ideas from today's episode. With checklists so you can start going. Yes. I want to pursue this and I'm going to We'll have very very easy steps where you can start knocking that down and start moving forward in your own journey The link will be in the description to download.

I just know it's too hard to take notes So now I'm giving you notes if [00:56:00] you would like them you guys can check out over our website www. thefallibleman. com slash podcast extras now Bruce For someone looking to build out their own category, one premise, say they have this idea that they're going to this product and they're going to revolutionize some industry or some product line.

What advice would you give them regarding the most crucial first steps to getting started?

Bruce Chamoff: Uh, start today. Never say I'm going to start tomorrow or someday. Start getting the wheels in motion mentally. That's number one. And the other piece of advice is never listen to anybody's negative advice. Even if it comes from your own parents, always listen to positive advice, respect positive advice, never respect negative people.

Um, and just keep going and be persistent.

D Brent Dowlen: That's a lot of wisdom. Those statements, gentlemen. [00:57:00] What is next for Bruce Chama? You talked a little bit about the stock has changed. You want to talk about that or tell us more about things.

Bruce Chamoff: Um, yeah, I mean, I, I want to see podcasters. I want to see them succeed. I feel like that's my mission.

You know, um, I also have courses on Udemy, but that's more in web development. So I want to start some courses on, on podcasting, more teaching people, um, being that, that mentor for people who need it. Um, you want to get into podcasting and you need someone that has the experience and it's been there. It's been there through some of the, like I said, the failures have been there since some of the successes and all through the persistence.

You can talk to me. Um, I'll help you get over any hurdle as I have myself and yeah, I'll, I'll just say, I'll talk about real quick about the stock exchange. So one of my, my web development projects [00:58:00] in 2003 was the virtual airline stock market. And. People who don't know this, Microsoft's biggest selling software is Flight Simulator.

That is, even sells more than Microsoft Office, right? Windows is not really a software anymore. It's more of an operating system. So people, and I didn't realize, people in ISOs love Flight Simulator. I love flying in real life. I love getting on a plane. I want to know what, you know, how do the pilots train?

So, I got that and I was flying from airport to airport and I go on the internet one day and I see virtual airlines and I'm like, what the heck is this? What's a virtual airline? Right? And how are they going to get me from point A to point B? They run their businesses like a real, I'm sorry, they run their virtual business like a real business.

They have pilots, [00:59:00] they have, their, their airplanes are in different hubs. Then you can download Microsoft Flight Simulator airplanes and you can actually put your own artwork on it. So you, you know, you put your, make your logo and you put on the tail and the runner, like everybody, like all the airlines do.

And I thought that was genius. I was just getting into web development at that point, and I figured there was the virtual airline stock market already. Somebody built that already. And again, like you said, hey, you know, do you get intimidated? No, I don't. So I wanted a project that I felt Inspirations, uh, inspired by and I wanted to program something and when you learn how to program in web development, you know, you buy the book, you always follow the author's examples.

It never hits home in order for you to become a good programmer. You have to do [01:00:00] something that hits home with you, not with the author. So you take on the project that you can relate to and then you learn how to program better. So it makes it easier. So I did it with that and I created this thing called a virtual stock, a virtual airline stock exchange.

And before I knew it, it grew to like 2000 members, like literally in a couple of months, I didn't expect it. It was just a pet project of mine. And before I knew it, I was running that, charging people monthly, and so forth. So, that died out a couple of years later. And then now, at this point, here we are in 2024, podcast networks are very competitive.

There are hundreds of them out there. So now I'm thinking about, what can I do to compete with all these other people and podcast networks that might not [01:01:00] have the knowledge to, to implement. I've already implemented this 21 years ago, even before the Long Island podcast network. It was a success, right? Um, I lost the website, which is why it's not around today, but it just dawned on me that after all these years, I'm trying to think of something where I can rise above all the podcast network competition.

And this was it. I've already built it. 21 years ago. But with a different language, different technology. It's even, it's all antiquated or what they call deprecated in the web development field. So I rebuilt this. Now, I'm, I will be honest, I am, I've had this for about six weeks now, and I am facing a lot of resistance from people that don't know how to trade stocks.

They don't invest in stocks, but I don't really care. I'm, [01:02:00] my goal is to teach people how to invest in stocks. Because what we did with the virtual podcast stock market was every podcast, including your podcast, Brent, every podcast gets a stock symbol, just like in the real world. They get a share price.

And for those people that don't know, a share price is what your stock is selling at that moment. And it changes about a thousand times a day, um, which we had that little system. You got a candlestick chart. So the candlestick chart is that red and green pattern thing that, you know, goes changes. We have that people can buy and sell your podcasts with fake money or virtual money.

And I was thinking about how do I, how do I make the currency? If I were the world podcast network, we obviously have about 50 different International currencies out there, right? It's not about the U S dollar. It's not about pounds and the Japanese yen and [01:03:00] all those, right? So I created a virtual currency that has no need for converting conversion.

It's called VPN, uh, virtual podcast money. That's what it's called. And everybody who joins this stock market gets 50, 000 VPMs. You take that 50, 000. You buy whatever podcast you want. And for me, that's another marketing strategy for podcasts, right? You can tell your subscribers, buy my stock. Here's the address.

Here's my stock symbol, right? Um, and I could look up your stock symbol right now. I don't have them all memorized, but, um, we try, I think I know yours because we try to take the initials of every word in the title of the podcast, which obviously for you, for you would be TFM. And I think If you have under three, uh, cause everything's four characters.

So if you have less than four words, we just tack on like a [01:04:00] random, uh, letter. So I think, I think it's like T F M M or something like that. Like I got to look it up unless you already know it. Um, and your share price changes. You tell your subscribers, buy my stock. Now what happens is we, we like the real stock market.

You know who the big stocks are. You know, meta is huge. Netflix is huge. You know what happened to me? I bought Facebook when it was FB, before it was meta in 2011. When it went, when the IPO came out. I bought it for 42 a share. It went down to 28. People were really, really disappointed. They made a big deal about Facebook stock, went down to 28.

I was tempted to sell and I kept on. I was like, it was like a small amount of money. It was like 500 bucks. Like. I'll either lose that money or it'll go somewhere else. Okay, no problem. Right. So we kept it going and it went [01:05:00] up to $162 a share. By the end of March of 2020, when we just got into the pandemic, stock market was really doing badly.

Facebook was up to $250 a share. It went down to 1 62 and I sold. And now today it's over 600. And I'm like, it's like Bitcoin. Like Bitcoin all over again. I'm like, I sold, I sold it at 162. You can't predict the future, right? You can't predict that Bitcoin was going to be big. You didn't know if your friend was telling the truth.

You didn't know if he was even onto something, but he was, but you didn't know that because you couldn't predict the future. And I couldn't predict the future that Facebook was going to. Shoot up the $600 a, a share or whatever it is today, but I still made money. You know, I bought at 42, went down to 28, and I sold it at 1 62 and I still made money.

And, you know, yeah. I could have like tripled my money. I quadruple my money by this point. Like, Facebook's almost a six 40 at this point, [01:06:00] so you never know. But you know what, I am, I, I have a, i, I have a goal to make this stock market. Um, a big thing in the, just like the podcast network became big and the whole thing there.

Um, we bought a couple of. coms to lock ourselves in from the competition and I'm going to educate. And when I do, when you do better, like when your stock goes high, Pete, new potential subscribers and audience members are going to see that. And let's say that, you know, the full woman, man goes, uh, goes. Goes up, you'll get, you're going to, people are going to see that and you're going to get new subscribers too.

So it's kind of a marketing, you know, it costs nobody any money to join. And, uh, I hope this is going to work and I won't let it fail.

D Brent Dowlen: Question for you, Bruce, are we going to be like a widget that I can embed in my website? [01:07:00]

Bruce Chamoff: You have a WordPress site?

D Brent Dowlen: Uh, I don't, I'm actually getting ready to build one.

Bruce Chamoff: Um, yeah, uh, definitely.

Um, I, I, we're building a WordPress widget for that and

D Brent Dowlen: be able to actually like have that on my podcast site, just, just for visuals, people be like, what is that? Right. Yes. Yeah. Might as well.

Bruce Chamoff: Yeah, absolutely. So it's going to be different sizes and it's going to say, you know, buy our podcast on the virtual stock market.

Uh, virtual podcast dog market at the share price and we're probably going to display your symbol. You know, yeah. Click on it. It goes right to your page. I don't like it.

D Brent Dowlen: It's a very cool idea and we need all the help we can, uh, biggest, the biggest, well, the biggest pain for I think all podcasters at this point is, you know, just getting our podcasts in front of people, uh, there, there is marketing [01:08:00] podcasts is very difficult.

Uh, that's, that's a whole nother show.

Bruce Chamoff: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

D Brent Dowlen: Where's the best place for people to find you Bruce?

Bruce Chamoff: Probably the podcast network itself at worldpodcast. network. I'm on LinkedIn. We have a podcast group of 2000 people there, but they could just find Bruce Chamoff on LinkedIn. Um, I have a couple of Facebook pages.

And

D Brent Dowlen: for all of you listening, if you want to check the video, I've got Bruce's website up for the world podcast network as well. We'll have Bruce's connections down below legitimately. We're going to make sure you can connect with Bruce because Bruce is one of my favorite people when it comes to the podcasting world.

Bruce Chamoff: Oh, that's great. That's, that's really, um, flattering. Thank you, Brent. That's great. Great to know.

D Brent Dowlen: Now, I know everybody is super concerned about when Guy Fawkes of the Gunpowder Plot was discovered and Bruce is 1605 and you're right, congratulations, 1605 [01:09:00] is correct. So, hey, for knowing, good job, right? Thank you.

I, I know everybody's super invested in that moment, right? Bruce, as we land the plane, what is the most important takeaway you want people to hear today?

Bruce Chamoff: Hey, if you have an idea for a successful business endeavor again started today. Listen to yourself. Don't listen to anybody who's negative. Including your own parents.

My parents, they tried to stop me. And you know, if you're, if you're a grown man, then that's it. You're a grown man. You don't need to take that advice anymore of people who say, no, don't ever listen to someone who says it's not going to work, um, or that will never take off or anything like that. If you think it will, that it will and never fail, never stop.

The moment you stop is that's when failure happens. And if you don't want to fail, don't give up. [01:10:00] That's it.

D Brent Dowlen: Wise words, guys, myself. Thanks for hanging out with us today. Thanks for checking it out. Be better tomorrow because what you do today. We'll see you on the next one.

David McCarter: This has been the fallible man podcast.

Your home for everything, man, husband, and father. Be sure to subscribe so you don't miss a show. Head over to www. thefallibleman. com for more content and get your own fallible man gift. I ain't waiting to show

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